Lib Zagmuk (Happy New Year)!
Since the second post is full again, I open another post for the new comments of my prolific followers from India, Greece and Brazil (also others are welcome of course) about Sumerian/Indo-European connections.
Enjoy!
Since the second post is full again, I open another post for the new comments of my prolific followers from India, Greece and Brazil (also others are welcome of course) about Sumerian/Indo-European connections.
Enjoy!
Regarding gud as 'to dance', note this entry from my 2006 Sumerian Lexicon:
ReplyDeletegu4-ud: to jump; to flutter; to twitch; to dance (reduplication class: gu4-gu4-ud); the planet Mercury ('bull' + 'sun').
Regarding amaru as flood in the original post at http://new-indology.blogspot.in/2015/05/sumerian-and-indo-european-surprising.html, note these entries:
a-ma-ru: destructive flood; wave; emergency (cf., kušé-mar-uru5 and (tu15)mar-uru5/mar-ru10) ('water' + mar-ru10, 'flood').
(tu15)mar-uru5[GUR8/TEgunû]: floodstorm, deluge, tempest (cf., é-mar-uru5) ('to immerse' + 'high, deep').
kuš é-mar-uru5[GUR8]: arrow quiver ('house' + 'to immerse' + 'high, deep').
Unfortunately, I don't have it... only the online version from 1999.
DeleteConcerning the gu4-ud, the first gu4(gud) is grouped in epsde with gu3 (Ox). This has an evident cognate in PIE:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0734.html
Common variations in gu3, are listed as gu3-ra gu3-re. Gu3 mean make noise. An onomatopoeia, probably.
Gu4(gud), though, has a meaning of attack. Thus, gu3 is linked to sound gu4 is linked to motion. That is linked to ud, I'd think of Gudud, having in mind with the Pokorny Etymon: gu̯hðei(ə)- 'to destroy, perish'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1740.html
The second part would be linked to Dud with a reduplication of Pokorny Etymon: 2. dhē- 'to do, put, place, set'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0376.html
mar- smear
DeletePokorny Etymon: smeru- 'fat, grease, smear' (the initial s is frequently dropped in PIE reflexes)
But also Pokorny Etymon: mori, mōri 'mere, sea'
Pokorny Etymon: sreu- 'to stream, flow' or
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1869.html
So, it is a matter of segmentation, mar-uru/mar-ru/ma-ru
In ePSD, I found ma for house in the Emesal dialect, which is also part of the word ma-da, land. So, land-flood.
I have the 2006 edition of the Sumerian Lexicon, studied the words mainly from it, sometimes though I’m perplexed seeing some differences between this and the ePSD (it is mainly about entries or meaning seemingly missing from the one or the other).
DeleteAbout amaru = “flood” it has been observed here (in Greece) a resemblance with the ancient Greek word ἀμάρα amara or ἀμάρη amarē = “trench, canal, irrigation ditch”, probably a foreign "oriental" loanword, connected by Chantraine and Frisk to Hittite amiyar- = “canal, ditch”; perhaps both words are related to mar = “shovel” (according to the lexicon from a Semitic root *mar meaning “hoe”, in Akkadian marru). I guess another option could be from the word a ĝar = “to irrigate (the fields)”, “to flood”, “to be submerged” (mar is the Emesal form of ĝar); maybe then, combined with uru = “flood, deluge, high”, the initial meaning of this Sumerian word was about the destructive overflowing of canals?
About Hit. amiyara- and Gr. amara, look here:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=LbG8vw_pva8C&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=amiyar+hittite&source=bl&ots=_TFiMiPaxH&sig=U0ifW-7ATwZyYxW7NsV-xHHVi4Y&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ-9WV9orKAhUHWhoKHUHqBqoQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=amiyar%20hittite&f=false
Also, from Bernal’s book, here:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=G8Ltdr2rg04C&pg=PA343&lpg=PA343&dq=amiyar+hittite&source=bl&ots=kkrr9qLR3W&sig=D0zqb4ABPWuMIx50C-6IwaAQ4B4&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiJ-9WV9orKAhUHWhoKHUHqBqoQ6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=amiyar%20hittite&f=false
Welcome John Halloran and thank you for the suggestions! You can be of great help with your wide knowledge of Sumerian.
DeleteThe connection proposed by Kyriakos with the words for channel is interesting, although I wonder if there is really a connection. Floods are from rivers rather than channels, I think.
I have added today some new terms at the entry amaru, I think a connection with IE is strengthened. It is also interesting that CAD supposes that Akk. imbaru 'fog' is a foreign word.
DeleteI have also added gam/kab, gab for crook and left.
Another possible comparison:
ReplyDeleteSum. mu = “to make a sound; to name, speak; name, word”
and Greek μῦθος mythos = “word, speech, tale, saying, talking”, of dubious origin, but usually thought to be from a root μυ my- = mu- and an ending -thos.
https://books.google.gr/books?id=kQFtlva3HaYC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=mythos+etymology&source=bl&ots=Ug4mWj8KXw&sig=0nXeaG8lZlVngbs4xoVDZs8EbF4&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinnvS6xovKAhULCBoKHSH0C1E4ChDoAQgdMAE#v=onepage&q=mythos%20etymology&f=false
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=myth
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mythos
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%E1%BF%A6%CE%B8%CE%BF%CF%82
Another comparison for today, also concerning the meaning “inundation”:
ReplyDeleteSum. ra(-g/h) = inundation; to strike, stab, slay; to stir; to impress, stamp or roll (a seal into clay); to branch out (from the side of a canal); to flood, overflow; to measure; to pack, haul or throw away (with -ta) according to the Sumerian Lexicon, J. A. Halloran, 2006. Or rah wr. rah2; ra-ah "to beat, kill; to break, crush; to flood; to thresh (grain with a flail) according to ePSD.
with Greek ῥάσσω (rhassō) or ῥάττω rhattō (<(w)rag-jō) = strike, dash, overthrow, beat etc; perhaps from *wrāĝh = to hit, to push.
According to Pokorny the root is u̯rāĝh-2 : u̯rǝĝh-
English meaning: to hit, push
German meaning: `schlagen, stoßen'??
Material: Att. ῥάττω (ᾱ: ἔρραξα, ἐρράχθην), ion. ῥήσσω `schlage, stampfe'; intr. `stürze heftig, dringe heran', att. κατα(ρ)ρά̄κτης `abschüssig', auch m. `Wassersturz, Fallgatter, ein Wasservogel'; att. ῥᾱχία, ion. ῥηχίη `Meeresbrandung, Flut; umbrandete Stelle';
aber aksl. u-raziti `percutere', russ. raz `Mahl', čech. ráz `Schlag' usw. gehören wohl eher zu *u̯rēĝ-.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=1467&root=config
From this word in English we have “cataract”:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cataract
About all the meanings of ῥάσσω rhassō, from here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=r(a/ssw
A similar verb ῥήγνυμι rhēgnymi = break, break asunder, rend, shatter, break loose, burst into floods of tears, burst forth etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dr(h%2Fgnumi
Finally ἀράσσω arassō = smite, dash in pieces:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Da)ra%2Fssw
Interesting suggestion :), i add with giving another for it:
DeletePerhaps this is again related to Sum. er, re 'to go' (perfect plural stem) which was compared with PIE *r-, ar/er- 'to move, set in motion', Old Persian ar- 'to reach, come'.
There is Sanskrit RS ऋष् {RSati}{arSitA}''to push , thrust, stab,kill'' and of course ''to go , move'' etc.
Thanks for the reply Nirjhar :), I think there are also some other Greek verbs which could be also compared to rah, like ῥαίω rhaiō = break, shiver, shatter, wreck a ship, generally destroy, Pass., to be broken down, crushed. Maybe also ῥώομαι rhōomai: move with speed or violence, rush on (esp. of warriors). About the meaning “thresh”, there is ἐρείκω ereikō (root -rei-: e-rei-k-ō) = to rend, bruise, also to pound (for grain), shatter. And of course there is ῥέω rheō: = flow, run, stream, gush, fall, drop off, etc connected with Skt. sravati, Lith. sravēti 'flow' < *srěw- [and finally from *ser / sar]
DeleteWe have also in Greek the verbs ῥίπτω rhiptō (thought to be usually from wri-p-jō, probably from *wri-p < *wrei-p (a root giving also the German werfen): throw, cast, hurl, and ἐρείπ-ω, ereipō (root -rei-: e-rei-p-ō): throw or dash down, tear down, Pass., to be thrown down, fall in ruins, intr., fall down;
maybe there is a connection with some of the meanings of Sum. ri ( = to lay down, cast, place; to set in place, imbue; to lean on; to impose; to throw down; to release, let go; to walk along; to pour out; to lead away.)
Thanks for the many examples, Kyriakos, the connection with wrāg'h- can be good, with fall of w- and g'h>h again. We must also consider Akk. rahāṣu 'to flood', which can be a cognate root.
Deleteῥήγνυμι rhēgnymi = break is derived from the root *wreg'- (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P2217.html), and another similar root is *wreg-: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P2216.html.
The similarity of forms and meanings suggest three variants of the same root.
Thanks to you both, very informative! :).
DeleteHere are some related roots-
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=3129
A thing concerning the meaning of rah “to impress, stamp or roll (a seal into clay)”. According to Iurii Mosenkis, the Greek word sphragis (σφραγίς) = seal, of uknown origin, may be related to Sumerian “kišib rah” = to seal (as a loanword). From here (page 2-3):
ReplyDeletehttps://www.academia.edu/10909863/Indoeuropeanized_Sumerian_language_and_Maikop-Uruk_relations"
kišib = (cylindrical) seal, means also "hand" in Sumerian, and acording to the author, this may be related to Hittite kessar = hand (see page 1). The Greek equivalent of kessar is χείρ kheir = hand.
While kišib rah (or rather šab rah – šab may mean also “seal”) could be related somehow to “sphragis” (as a Wanderwort perhaps), I’m not sure about the kessar – kišib relation. This Sumerian word kišib in my opinion looks very much like a mycenean (Linear B) word qi-si-pe-e, meaning the sword (ξίφος xiphos).
Acording to Wikipedia “a relation [of xiphos] to Arabic saifun and Egyptian sēfet has been suggested, although this does not explain the presence of a labiovelar in Mycenaean.One suggestion connects Ossetic äxsirf"sickle", which would point to a virtual Indo-European *kwsibhro-.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiphos
also about the Arabic term saif (looks more like šab):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar
Of course a sword is not a seal; I remember though in Sumerian a word silig for “hand” meaning also “ax”. Also there is a Sumerian word gazinbu means "a pole, post; stick, club". Another similar word gešbu means "a weapon”. Any suggestions?
I think that kišib rah has nothing to do with sphragis. This word looks IE, Chantraine cites a comparison with Lithuanian sprógti 'to explode', because the seal make explode clay or wax (I don't understand why actually). I think it can be related with the root of breaking *bhrag' (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0290.html), because the seal was broken while opening a letter or an object sealed.
DeleteI have added bad 'to open', another case of cognate Semitic root as well!
About the Mycenean qi-si-po (qi-si-pe-e is the dual), I think it's interesting that the corresponding ideogramm (*234 from Pylos) doesn’t look absolutely like a classical Greek sword (another ideogram for sword, 233 seems to depict a more “normal” sword).
Deletehttp://minoan.deaditerranean.com/resources/linear-b-ideograms/234-2/
According to the following page it seems to represent a kind of curved sword or curved dagger or sickle.
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/weapons1.htm
“The ideogram *234 from Pylos is only attested on one tablet (PY Ta 716) of which the text is not clear … The ideogram *234 is normaly considered indicating a sword being followed by the word qi-si-pe-e (dual); it seems representing a one cut blade slightly bended. It could be related to a Slaughter-knife or to a Near East curved sword as well as some kind of curved dagger or sickle.”
That seems to strengthen the connection of xiphos with the ossetian word for sickle and possibly to the above Sumerian words. The idea of “curved weapon” for example maybe serve as a connection with ĝešbu or ĝešpu “weapon” (according to ePSD “bow? throwstick? javelin?" - according to Halloran’s Sumerian Lexicon “bow, boomerang; throw stick; also, with some different writing, “fist(s); hook; handle; grappling hook for a wrestler; wrestling”). The idea of a “curved object” also with kišib = cylindrical seal.
The Ossetian word for sickle is not compatible because of the r that is not lost in Greek. xiphos should have an IE root, we have the root *kseip/kseib- (Iranian and Slavic b can also come from bh-) 'to toss, throw', giving Skt. kṣip- 'to throw, cast, to strike or hit (with a weapon), Slavic šib- 'to throw'.
DeleteAnd I remember xyo seems related to the root sku-, with inversion, so we can also consider the root skubh- 'to shove, push, shoot, throw':
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1758.html
What about comparing Sumerian šub "to fall; to drop, lay (down); to thresh (grain)" ?.
DeleteWe have also an inversion in case of σκίφος skiphos = “sword”, which is a dialectical form of xiphos; according to Hesychius skiphos means also penis (“pudenda”), which leads us again to the idea of “bent / cylindrical tool”; also σκίπει skipei means νύσσει nyssei “he thrusts” according to Hesychius, σκιφίζειν skiphizein = ξιφίζειν xiphizein "to dance the sword dance".
DeleteMaybe an evolution of an inverted ks into sk connects kišib and ĝešbu to Sum. zub = “bent stick (for throwing), throwing stick” in Akkadian gamlu (ePSD), zubu, zubi “sickle, bent throwing stick” (Halloran’s Sum. Lexicon) similar to Slavic initial *sk > ch. Taking though into consideration the Mycenean form, I wonder if we had in this case a conversion of a possible initial labiovelar (assuming a labiovelar q in case of kišib) into a dental (as it happens sometimes in Greek); the ĝ (like in ĝešbu) is according to the grammar a nasal labiovelar; I remember also a Sum. phoneme gb, possibly a labiovelar; generally the existence of labiovelars cannot be excluded in Sumerian (even if they are not indicated in writing).
Also the Greek letter ξ (ks) was used by the priest Berossos in 3rd century B.C. to spell the name of king Ziusudra, given in Greek as "Xisouthros". Look at Jagersma's Sumerian Grammar, page 43.
DeleteAbout Ziusudra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziusudra
I think that the cylindrical shape is not a right track, the meaning of skipei as the same as vyssei (to touch with a sharp point) perfectly corresponds to the idea of xiphos, so the aspiration can be one of the cases where it is added in Greek.
Deletekišib 'seal' is the same word and symbol as hand, and it should be hand the original meaning, maybe also the seal was seen as a hand that is used to leave an imprint.
About zub, the throwing stick, maybe the root is this:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1944.html
Old Norse svāf 'spear' and Lat. supo (although only in a gloss) are quite close!
šub "to fall; to drop, lay (down); to thresh (grain)" I find interesting the first two meanings, because they remind Latin sub 'under, below', and supinus 'lying on the back'.
About the cylindrical shape the idea is the same with ğes, firstly as “tree, tree trunk” and then as “tool, male organ, plow” etc. Also kišib as cylindrical seal seems to be older, attested about 3000, with 17.468 instances, most of them about 2500, according to PSD, while kišib as “hand, wrist” is attested 11 instances, all about 2000.
DeleteI had also in mind a Greek word σκύφος skyphos = "cup, used mostly by peasants”, which seems as a word close to skiphos / xiphos. There is indeed a form of the same word as σκυξιφόν skyxiphon, according to Hesychius, which has puzzled the linguists a lot; skyphos is also linked, according to Hesychius again, to another word κισσύβιον kissybion or κισσύφιον or kissyphion, meaning “rustic drinking cup of wood”, which looks very close to kišib again. So, I thought that maybe there was an archaic root for cylindrical or curved objects, used for several items of that shape.
Regarding Kyriakos Samelis answer to my post on 30 December 2015 at 22:32:
ReplyDeleteIndeed, the resamblance is remarkable, but sumerian had been barely deciphered and chinese mandarin there used and older type of transcription, but perhaps more faithful to convetional spelling (but very cumbersome for mandarin chinese.
The other thing it is that studies on middle chinese barely if started at all.
middle chinese usually make chinese uncercognizable, in relation to most dialects and old chinese more even so.
It's like portuguese, or any other romance language, and old latin would not have any sort of reconizable lexical resamblance at least how may people reconstruct the pronounciation which is odd, really odd. Some reconstructions are barely pronounceable, because they have too many sequences of laryngeals and glotals stops (I am thinking of Baxter Lagart recontruction). More than any known natural language.
Kyriakos
ReplyDeleteSum. pag "to enclose, confine, cage (a bird)" compared to
*pag / pak = to repair, strengthen'
with some cognates in Latin, German and English, meaning “to enclose (with stakes)” etc
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1446.html
Also from Pokorny: Old Indian páś- (Instr. Pl. paḍbhíḥ) `loop, noose, snare, rope', pā́śa- m. ds., pajrá- `thickset, strong'. Greek πάγη pagē ‘loop, noose, snare, Falle', πακτόω paktoō `make tight.
Daniel de França MTd2
mar [PARASITE] (8x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ur III) wr. mar "louse; worm; parasite" Akk. miqqanu; tūltu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3586.html
Pokorny Etymon: 1. math-, or moth- 'moth, harmful insect'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1226.html
Daniel de França MTd2
Or
Pokorny Etymon: moru̯ī̆- 'maur, mire, ant'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1333.html
mušen [BIRD] (454x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. mušen; mu-ti-in; mu-tin "bird" Akk. işşūru
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3840.html
Pokorny Etymon: 2. mū-, mus- 'fly, gnat, midge, muscid, mosquito'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1342.html
Daniel de França MTd2
igi [EYE] (1133x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. igi; i-bi2; i-gi "eye; carved eye (for statues)" Akk. īnu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2510.html
Pokorny Etymon: oku̯- 'to see, ogle; eye'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1416.html
It seems it was proposed before, but there was a typo in the PIE etymology.
Daniel de França MTd2
From Nirjhar:
Pokorny Etymon: steigh- 'to climb, ascend; stride, march'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1885.html
compare Sumerian šiten "march, passage"
The missing Asian form is
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=stak&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=
1.
Nirjhar0071 December 2015 at 23:34
Today i start with Comparing Sumerian peš ''(to be) thick,to gather,(to be) wide' etc with PIE *bhangh- "thick, fat" (cognates: Sanskrit bahu- "much, numerous" Avestan bazah- "height, depth," Hittite pankush "large," Old Norse bingr "heap," Old High German bungo "a bulb," Lithuanian biess "thick" French pachyderme,Greek pakhydermos "thick-skinned," etc etc.
Reply
2.
Nirjhar0072 December 2015 at 03:34
My second comparison of the day is Sumerian had "(to be) bright; to shine; (to be) pure; (to be) clear" with Proto-Indo-European *gʷhai- 'light, bright'
: Old Greek make phaió-, phái̯dimo- `shiny, handsome ', phai̯dró-` bright, vivid, cheerful, merry, merry', phai̯dǖnō `bright, clean, wash; cheer, refresh '
Baltic: *geĩd-r-ā̂, *geîd-r-ā̂, *gaid-r-ā̂ f., *geĩd-r-a-, *gaĩd-r-u- adj., *gaĩd-s-a- c., *gid-r-a- adj.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+400&root=config
Pokorny : *gu̯hēi- : gu̯həi-, gu̯həi-d- : gu̯hīd- 'bright, shining'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0745.html
Yes, its absent apparently from Asian Branches, but the structure looks quite IE!.
I find Sum. mar "louse; worm; parasite" compared with IE moru̯ī̆- 'maur, mire, ant' close indeed. I think perhaps it had to do it with the dark color of the insects, but i'm unable to find the Asian parallels.
DeleteComparing Sum. mušen; mu-ti-in; mu-tin "bird" with IE mū-, mus- 'fly, gnat, midge, muscid, mosquito' is sense making technically , perhaps its an archaic form, but as TOB suggests the root is related mostly to insects.
Deletehttp://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fnostr%2fnostret&text_number=+715&root=config
There are other combinations:
DeletePIE(math-, or moth- 'moth, harmful insect', moru̯ī̆- 'maur, mire, ant', mū-, mus- 'fly, gnat, midge, muscid, mosquito')
VS.
Sum( mar- "louse; worm; parasite")
3 pairs
Logically, the IE root here is *mu- , this seems to be very imitative, and therefore can be really archaic.
Deletehttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mosquito&allowed_in_frame=0
The case of mar- is different IMO.
DeleteAbout the IE moru̯ī̆- 'maur, mire, ant' we have in Sanskrit valmīka and vamrīkūṭa "ant-hill".
DeleteYes. Valmiki is said to have grown an ant hill over him after a very long meditation. That's an explanation for his name.
DeletePokorny says the morwi and uormi are variations:
DeleteMeaning: ant
Root / lemma: moru̯ī̯ī̆-̆- : ant, derived from Root / lemma: mai-1 : to cut down, work with a
sharp instrument, ant.
Note: distorted taboo u̯o̯ormo-, mormo-, mouro- (Germanic also meuro-)
Material: attributable to moru̯ī̯ī̆-̆- are: Avestan maoirī- (secondary m. maurvay-), sogd. 'm'wrč
f., npers. mōr ` ant ';
Maybe expressive rr in alb. morr ` louse '.
In u̯o̯orm-; gr. βύρμᾱξ, βόρμᾱξ Hes. (β- Schriftbehelf for F, compare also ὅρμικας μύρμηξ
Hes.); Old Indic valmīka- m. ` ant heap '; besides with totally single sound result vamrá- m.,
vamrī́ f. ` ant '.
Yes, TOB also agrees that Valmi have come from *morw- / *merw- ''ant''
Deletehttp://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+715&root=config
So, it is related to Sanskrit valmI,vamra !. And is IE.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeletePokorny Etymon: ames-, or omes- 'blackbird: merl, ousel'
ReplyDeletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0073.html
mušen [BIRD] (454x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, unknown) wr. mušen; mu-ti-in; mu-tin "bird" Akk. işşūru
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3840.html
Not the similarity between
passeris and the akkadian form.
http://latin-dictionary.net/search/english/sparrow
There is also buru, "bird(s), small birds, sparrow; flock of birds" Akk. işşūru, for passer / sparrow.
DeleteThe PIE is not contained in the pokorny dictionary online. But in wiktionary, it is Etymology[edit]
DeletePIE root
*peth₂-
From the root *peth₂- ( it also yields ptero in greek)
Noun
*péth₂r̥ n (oblique stem *pth₂én-)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/p%C3%A9th%E2%82%82r%CC%A5
Probably this one is equivalent to buru and the one from which akkadian borrowed.
According pokorny ames/omes, the front vowel is frequently dropped in its reflexes.
The etymology of "sparrow" is closer, I think (whith an additional s though):
Deletehttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sparrow
About the sum. word for "wing, feather", this is "pa". Another word for wing is "a".
Also, about mušen, I think that the initial m of the word seems to be faint, it tends to dissapear. For example, the word mušendu "bird-catcher", written also as /usandu/, was turned as just "usandu" in Akkadian, without an m at all. Perhaps it was a kind of w.
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3842.html
Pokorny says that the roots for m tend to be changed in the case of morwi (which yields formica, ant in latin) to uormi (which yields varmi which yields valmiki, born from an anthill). So, this phenomenon is also registered in PIE. Since p and m are both bilabials, it could also be the case.
DeleteAbout Akk. iṣṣūru, this is the etymology given by Starostin:
DeleteProto-Semitic: *ʕVṣ̣ūr-
Afroasiatic etymology: Afroasiatic etymology
Meaning: 'bird'
Akkadian: iṣṣūru
Ugaritic: ʕṣr
Tigrai (Tigriñña): č̣ǝru 'small bird' K 2503 (also ṣir?)
Amharic: č̣ǝre
Passer from *pat- is a bit strange, it implies an unusual suffix -ser rather than -tro-. There is also Greek psar 'starling', that Pokorny included under sper-: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1844.html.
I suspect also for passer a metathesis from spr- which is a common Semitic root, found in Ugaritic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Phoenician, Arabic... I cannot cite Starostin because it's too long. Cognates of sparrow apparently are found only in European languages and Tocharian, not in Skt. or Iranian. So maybe the word is not really IE, but a Semitic word found in the Neolithic substrate.
I found the PIE entry in the pdf of pokorny:
DeleteRoot / lemma: pet-2, petǝ- : ptē-, ptō- (gr. ptā-)
Meaning: to fall; to fly
Maybe from Slavic padac ` fall'.
It's long entry, but it shows the reflexes
पतरु pataru adj. fugitive
पतरु pataru adj. flying
पतग pataga m. bird
पटाक paTAka m. bird
yes, pataru is similar to passer, but the only reason I could see for 'passer' from *pat- is pat+ser, which is not attested in other languages, while we have psar 'starling' in Greek, probably from spar-. Also in Germanic languages the root spr- is used for the starling, like nl. spreeuw: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sparrow
DeleteThere is also a word muš = snake, which seems connected to mušen = bird (J. Halloran gives the etymology of mušen from muš = snake and an = high). I remember also a word ušum = snake (also noble and first & foremost), which looks like muš after some kind of metathesis (m/š), as it is in the case of this IE word for ant, according to Pokorny, as Daniel suggested.
DeleteThis ušum reminds me the avestan word aesma = wrath. Maybe a similar root was used to indicate characteristics common for snakes & reptiles, birds and insects, meaning "wrath" or something similar. For example I remember that in Greek there is a word oistros for an insect (a kind of dangerous fly), from oima = frenzy, thought to be from *oisma < aesma. There is also a word huš = wrath.
Very Interesting again Kyriakos :), The IE root for the Avestan and Greek words is this :
Deletehttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ire&allowed_in_frame=0
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF%E1%BC%B6%CF%83%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
It is also that in Greek there is a word οἰωνός oiōnos, meaning "bird of prey, great bird, bird of omen, bird generally", with an ambiguous etymology; some connect it with Latin avis etc or a word oios meaning "solitary"; yet others think it is connected with the already mentioned οἶμα oima "impetus", οἶστρος oistros "gadfly" and ὀιστός oistos "arrow", with a meaning of "impetuous movement".
DeleteAccording to this etymology, the stem could be from oi-/ ois- or o-is- and an ending -ōnos and the reconstruction would be like *oisōnos, which seems to me quite close to the usan- of usandu (instead of mušendu) for bird-catcher.
I've seen that ṣ IPA (t)sʼ of işşūru is a dento alveolar emphatic consonant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emphatic_consonant
DeleteGoing to and from t or s seems to be an easy path for a semitic speaker, and this is a frequent sound in all semitic branch.
"Passer from *pat- is a bit strange, it implies an unusual suffix -ser rather than -tro"
Delete*pat - tro -(semitic influence)> patsəro (the odd ser suffix). If we drop the t', we've got close to the italic word as well as psar in greek. By methatesis we get separo.
So, in the case of this bird, we have an initial word and a time living close to semitic, where it borrowed the word, and influenced the evolution in the other branches, being the Indo Aryan the one with the least influence.
Daniel, look here:
Deletehttps://books.google.gr/books?id=SMzgBLT87MkC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=i%C5%9F%C5%9F%C5%ABru+bird+etymology&source=bl&ots=t4M7S7LHpz&sig=ASUg2fGevzZfPSLQaicJ3SE1OTk&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicmoC-qJ3KAhVE1xQKHQeUBA8Q6AEIPzAF#v=onepage&q=i%C5%9F%C5%9F%C5%ABru%20bird%20etymology&f=false
The Hebrew word for “bird” looks like the Akkadian for “sparrow; both look like the IE root for the same bird (-sper / -spar), maybe also for Sum. buru. The root of işşūru (‘Vşşūr) looks to be different (as Giacomo already has pointed); the etymology of this root though is unclear:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=HZilCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=i%C5%9F%C5%9F%C5%ABru+bird+akkadian&source=bl&ots=Zu0hwyN-2h&sig=r7abdonJ6ye7J20Esw2rwBZffgc&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiY1teHp53KAhVESBQKHbTDCPIQ6AEINzAF#v=onepage&q=i%C5%9F%C5%9F%C5%ABru%20bird%20akkadian&f=false
I think that this root ʕşr of işşūru could be connected to the root of oistros (*eis-/ *ais “rapid movement”, also used for “strong”, even for “iron”, like in isəro-s `kräftig, heilig). I remember now that Nirjhar has compared it at the first post with Sum. ir = strong, giving as cognates Sanskrit iSra and Greek iros. Pokorny, while giving oistros as a cognate, does not do this for oionos = bird, because linguists argue about it or maybe is against that; I checked at the dictionaries : Chantraine thinks it is less plausible, Frisk does not take a side, but most probably it belongs also here. You can look some cognates from here (root eis-1):
http://indo-european.info/pokorny-etymological-dictionary/whnjs.htm
Maybe a archaic IE language inherited some cognates for "bird" from this root into proto-Akkadian and proto-Sumerian, like for example isəro-s for işşūru and ?oisonos for mušen.
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DeleteThere is a root pr 'to fly' in Afro-Asiatic:
DeleteProto-Afro-Asiatic: *pVr-
Meaning: fly, soar
Borean etymology: Borean etymology
Semitic: *pVrr- 'fly' 1, 'flee' 2
Berber: *(Ha)fir- ~ fVrfVr- 'fly'
Egyptian: pꜣ 'fly' (pyr)
Western Chadic: *pir- 'soar into the air' 1, 'stretch the wings' 2
Central Chadic: *pi/ar- 'fly' 1, 'fly away (bird)'2, 'bird's flight' 3, 'jump' 4
Beḍauye (Beja): fir 'fly'
Central Cushitic (Agaw): *fir- 'fly'
I suspect that spr (and buru) for bird is maybe related to this, although I don't know if there are similar cases in Semitic. I find it also quite onomatopoeic for the sound of the wings of sparrows...
Anyway, the fact that terms with spr are much more spread, against the isolated Lat. passer and Greek psar, suggests that spr is the original, and not the metathesis.
About mušen, it is interesting that there are many words for birds starting with muš, using the same symbol of the snake, used also for the gecko (mušdagura). Did they have an idea of the kinship of reptiles and birds? Unlikely, but birds, especially eagles, are seen as hunters of snakes, like the Indian Garuda. Also in Mesopotamian mythology serpents and eagles are in conflict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etana
A name of bird, mušgu, uses gu7 which means 'to eat': snake-eater. So, maybe mušen is 'lord of snakes'.
Kyriakos, but what about the "p"? Specifically pat, which is linked "to fall", "to fly". I thought that losing it would be harder than having one consonants reinterpreted and changed. Also, it would be easier to explain the italic word.
DeleteI looked at the first link and it seems that it could be explained by a proto semitic root spr.
As for a proto asiatic root pr, it's interesting that it is similar to the root pat, of PIE. S is an enfatic and can be reinterpreted as ts. Which can yield both spr (sparrow), psr (passari), ptr (ptero).
Daniel, about the p, I though something else, that we could take the alternative writing of mušen which is "mutin" = bird.
DeleteAccording to Whittaker, another (Emesal) mutin = "man, bridegroom" is related to an archaic word similar to Greek word πότις potis = lord; he also explains why is this change among the labials (p > m). So one could say someting similar about the other mutin = "bird" perhaps, for example something like Greek πτηνόν ptēnon or πετεινόν peteinon which means bird, actually "winged" or "the one that flies".
https://books.google.gr/books?id=kGUWu_91kOUC&pg=PA402&lpg=PA402&dq=sumerian+mutin+lord&source=bl&ots=Y8F-xKe0Mo&sig=py0SKYQZjqXDaXINGgU5GmwmhCU&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjInLmq3Z3KAhVMtBQKHc69DWsQ6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=sumerian%20mutin%20lord&f=false
But if I'm not wrong I understood this mutin as some other word and not as a form of mušen.
Giacomo, according to Hesychius the term oionoi (birds) can be applied not only to birds of pray or just birds but also for snakes (ὄφεις opheis): · σαρκοφάγα ὄρνεα καὶ πάντα, γῦπες, κόρακες. [εἴρηνται δὲ οἰωνοί, δι' ὧν οἰωνιζόμεθα τὰ μέλλοντα, ὅθεν καὶ οἱ μάντεις h. ἢ ὄφεις.
DeleteAlso oionos for "snake" ὄφις ophis:
· ὄφις. ἐπιεικῶς γὰρ λέγεται εἰς τὰς μαντείας τοὺς ὄφεις
ἔχειν, οὓς καὶ οἰωνοὺς ἔλεγον
https://el.wikisource.org/wiki/%CE%93%CE%BB%CF%8E%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B9/%CE%9F
There's that proposal I made, based on the common semitic phoneme ş, it's like ts. So, the original word could be muş, which could evolve to mutin and mushen.
DeleteThe original semantic linking lord potis and mutin, can be high. So, linking all of this could be the root poş.
The word topos, in greek does not have a PIE etymology:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Neither the word top, in the germanic branch, whose proto form is *tuppaz
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=top&allowed_in_frame=0
But ş is a semitic phoneme, not an IE; also what do you mean by topos and top? anagrammatizations?
DeleteI am not talking only about PIE, but about Akkadian, Sumerian and PIE reflexes, specially those of ketum area. If they had a long and common relation, a wordscan be borrowed multiple times, in both directions. So, you have a PIE word, which is borrowed from it into Akkadian and than back to IE languages. Or not even that, they might be spoken as a second language and be spoken with near equivalent phonemes
DeleteRegarding topos, I am linking it with mushen, mutin, tuppaz, topos. Also, there's the hypothesis of a semitic layer to the germanic branch. So, this is also related to that, to the cohabitation of semitic, sumeirian and ketum languages. This is also to support the relations I proposed to italic branch, specially regarding the origin of passari.
There is another word ĝeštin, wr.ĝeštin; ĝešĝeštin; mu-tin; mu-ti-in "vine; wine" Akk. Karānu. Again, if one follows the same steps from mutin > potin, one could have this:
Deletehttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=potion
But in this case ĝeš = mu (Emesal) = wood, so maybe the root would be rather “tin”.
I haven't understood yet the semitic roots of topos "place" and its relation with tuppaz and mušen.
DeleteI didn't specify a language from where the root comes from (in this case, I am not sure if there is a semitic root). They just seem to converge into a similar semantic and sound,as if they are under an areal influence of a Semitic language. And I am insisting on this since this looks like the process I pointed before to the root of passari, spr, etc.
DeleteAt a previous message I made a mistake, I meant Latin potis = lord, in Greek the word is πόσις posis = husband (< *πότις potis), there is also δεσπότης despotes literally “lord of the house”.
DeleteMeantime, I was wondering if we could use the same pattern of labial change for another word muš2= "face, appearance", muš3 "flat space; a holy area" Akk. mātu I(ePSD); for J. Halloran muš2,3: "face, appearance, aspect; diadem; a city's irrigated, cultivated territory; surface (mu10, 'female', + áš, 'to desire'), also to v., to glisten, shine."
For example, for “glisten, shine” we could compare this:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%86%CE%AC%CE%BF%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
Proto-Indo-with European *bʰeh₂os like Greek phaos φάος (Attic φως phōs) [ = light] (compare φάω (pháō), φαίνω (phaínō)) [ = "appear" ], Latin iubar (“radiance, light”), Sanskrit भास् (bhās, “light, brilliance”), भास (bhāsa,“luster, light”), and Old English basu (“purple”).
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DeleteI think I found the source of topos and mushen, specifically the word I came up with poş and that is PIE itself, perhaps a very early stage of it
DeletePokorny Etymon: pos 'about, around; by, beside; in front of'
It also carries the idea of place, or position.
I today propose to connect :
ReplyDeleteSumerian kul "to run" with :
Proto-IE: *kʷele-
Meaning: to move around, to drive
Tokharian: A kälk-, B kalāk- (PT *kälk- ~ *kelāk-) 'to follow' (Adams 147); A, B käl- (PT *käl-) 'lead, bring' (169); A lutk-, B klutk- (PT *kl-utk-) 'to turn' (Adams 225-226)
Old Indian: cárati `to move, go, walk, act, conduct, undertake', inf. cáritum, ptc. carita-, cīrṇa-; carítra- n. `foot, leg; going'; cāra- m. `going, motion'
Avestan: čaraiti `versatur, obliegt einer Tätigkeit'
Other Iranian: NPers čarīdan `weiden'
Old Greek: pélomai̯ (seltener pélō) , aor. épleto, peri-plómeno-, éple `sich regen, sich bewegen; werden, stattfinden, sein', pólo-s m. `Achse, Weltachse, Pol, Himmelsgewölbe, runde Scheibe der Sonnenuhr etc.'; poléō, -omai̯ `sich umherbewegen, umwandern, besorgen etc.'; amphí-polo-s `Dienerin (Hom.), Diener', ai̯pólo-s `Ziegenhirt', oi̯opólo-s `Schafhirt', pálin `rückwarts, in umgekehrter Richtung'; peri-téllomai̯ `sich im Kreise drehen', téllō, aor. étẹ̄lan (hodón) `sie legten (den Weg) zurück'; télomai̯, aeol. pélomai̯ `werden (mit Futurbed.)', kyren. tentai `id.'; teletǟ́ f. `feierlicher Ritus, Weihe'; télos n. `Ende, Grenze, Ziel, Vollendung, Erfüllung, Entscheidung; obrigkeitliches Amt, Behörde; Weihe'
Latin: colō, -ere, -uī, cultum `bebauen, (be)wohnen; pflegen; ehren', colōnus, -ī m. `Bebauer, Kolonist', incolō, -ere `bewohnen', incola `Einwohner', accola `Anwohner'; inquilīnus m. `Insasse, Mieter, Hausgenopsse'; anculus, -ī `Diener, Knecht'
Russ. meaning: двигаться вокруг, гнать (стадо)
References: WP I 514 f
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=1499
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0882.html
I think Sanskrit also has cal {चल् }, a variant from the same root.
Deletehttp://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?script=HK&beginning=0+&tinput=+cal&trans=Translate&direction=AU
Please also point me, if this is already discussed :) .
yes, cal is considered a variant in l of car, so it belongs to the same IE root.
DeleteThere is also Latin currere 'to run', that is reported to the root k'ers- but probably it comes more directly from kurs-.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0947.html
Compare : Sumerian na/nu ''man'' with this Irish form nái - ‘human (being)’ (Etymology Number 7 ).
ReplyDeletehttp://www.academia.edu/19813514/Ten_New_Indo-European_Etymologies_for_the_Celtic_Languages
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ReplyDeleteNirjhar and I propose the connection between
ReplyDeletebANa - arrow
pana - bow (sumerian)
e2-pana - quiver (house of bows)
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1358.html
Yes, Nirjhar has already proposed, and I have seen it already somewhere, probably in Autran. Apparently there can be a relation, in Skt. bāṇa means also reed, reed-shaft. Mayrhofer cites also Mon (Austroasiatic) pan, Khmer bañ 'to shoot with bow', but also Sakai (Austroasiatic) awān, Semang (also AA.) awen 'bamboo'. In Skt. there is also the similar word, veṇu, for bamboo. So, it's possible that bāṇa comes from Austroasiatic.
DeleteNow, a connection of Sumerian and Austric has already been studied, I have found this impressive article, including also pana:
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sumer.htm
I think we can have to do here with a very archaic linguistic stratum of the Southern coasts of Asia, and we have even some cognates of Austric and PIE, as already noticed by Koenraad Elst... this makes me see the South Asian mtDNA found in Mesopotamia under a different light
I posted this book here, I think. Also one comparing hamito semitic with austronesian. But, what's your conclusion regarding mDNA?
DeleteI am not sure if I can call such coincidences a mere substrate. There are way too many words. At the same time, I cannot imagine a urheimat for all this.
I think we can have to do here with a very archaic linguistic stratum of the Southern coasts of Asia, and we have even some cognates of Austric and PIE, as already noticed by Koenraad Elst... this makes me see the South Asian mtDNA found in Mesopotamia under a different light
DeleteI must say, that i consider it as a quite suggestive approach. I actually suggested you that article on Austric-Sumerian :).
We will need to go carefully, i will try to gather more data.
I found it through google, sorry if I did not remark in the past!
DeleteI am thinking about the topic, also if we can suppose rather a migration from South Asia... we must also consider the Arabic peninsula and Bahrein (Dilmun), a candidate of origin of Sumerians, and also the Sundadont types found in the Near East. The connection with PIE can be exactly through Sumerians and maybe also Elamites, rather than in India as Elst thought.
Giacomo,
DeleteDo bANa have other IE reflexes?. Can it be related to the root of bend?.
The case of Bahrain / Dilmun (called Tylos by the Ancient Greeks) as a caditate of origine of Sumerians reminds the legend of Panchaea or Παγχαία (Panchaia; an island of the Persian Gulf or the Indian Ocean, supposed to have been inhabited (as Heuhemeros of Messene has desribed in his book of "Sacred History" and after him repeated by the historician Diodorus of Sicily) not only by natives, but also some foreigners: the "Oceanites", the "Indians", the "Scythians" and the "Cretans"; so there were five ethnicities on the island. That is a myth of course, but many people (not academics) here think that Panchaea is connected to the Sumerians. Usually Panchaea is thought to be Bahrain.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchaea
https://books.google.gr/books?id=OWS8TUTWLvAC&pg=PA79&lpg=PA79&dq=Panchaea+Sacred+History&source=bl&ots=ksahAXM5Ae&sig=2Lw5se-07R-_uW_9_BZuiO25y3o&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj78ris6KHKAhXGvxQKHR02CXAQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=Panchaea%20Sacred%20History&f=false
Also, about Bahrain at the Seleucid period:
https://www.academia.edu/7466311/RETHINKING_THE_HELLENISTIC_GULF_THE_NEW_GREEK_INSCRIPTION_FROM_BAHRAIN
Thank you Kyriakos for these sources, although late. I have read that Bahrein is considered also the homeland of Phoenicians.
DeleteNirjhar, about bāṇa, its meaning is clearly related to reed, and it does not seem to have other IE cognates. The root of bend in Indic is badh-. Also the retroflex nasal suggests a non-IE origin.
About Arabian Australoids, there are some debates and even photos here:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/5186466/1/
A recent study on Arabian DNA has revealed that there is an Iranian/Pakistani component in Arabia, and that UAE in the gulf has even 21% of South Asian DNA, while Iran 24%. These percentages suggest quite ancient migrations.
Here a paper reporting South Asian mtDNA in ancient Mesopotamia: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073682
It supports a Tibetan connection, but it seems rather with India, especially South and Northeast: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192148/
Would it be the case that all these people came from the flood of Sundaland? That was the only known climate which could sustain a large population, since it was tropical. These pulled people which flooded the eurasia with a new population.
DeleteThese people knew boats, it was common. And they colonized the rest of eurasia in a few centuries, just like people colonized all the americas in a few centuries.
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DeleteDaniel, also the Black Sea deluge (from the other side)
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
About the retroflex nasal, even though in case of another related word tUNa ''quiver'' it exists, TOB Suggests it to be of IE origin :
DeleteProto-IE: * tAwǝl-, twōl- * (* tul-)
Meaning: quiver, pipe
Old Indian: tūṇa- m., tūṇi- m., tūṇī- f. `quiver', tū́ṇava- m. `flute'
Old Greek: sōlḗn, -os m. (and sōlē̂no-s m. Anan.Oxy.) 'channel, gutter; pipe'; 'membru virile (Hsch.)'
Slavic: *tūlъ
Germanic: *ɵul-ō(n-) f.
Russ. meaning: колчан, трубка
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fpiet&text_number=1962&root=config
As you know, quite a few of the Sanskrit words developed retroflexion at a later stage.
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DeleteThe problem with the Black Sea Deluge it that the area is not so large and I am not so sure if that region was so populated relative to other places. During the ice age, most of the lands of world was either a very hot desert or a cold permafrost, Sunda Land was quite big.
DeleteThough all these coincidences could be explained by a small, but constant pressure from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideasthesia . That would make reconstructions fail, since they would eventually converge to this "pre made" sounds.
http://psych.mcmaster.ca/maurerlab/publications/maurer_bouba.pdf
I found this paper on, it is a tutorial on research about word sounds and meanings. This seems to be independent of cultural background: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Charles_Spence/publication/49783396_Crossmodal_correspondences_a_tutorial_review/links/004635298cbe451d2b000000.pdf
DeleteGiacomo,
DeleteI think we need aDNA from a more ancient period ( before 3000 BC), to really justify that we can create the concept of this archaic stratum. Modern Autosomal composition can be misleading .
SSC also had good trade relations with those areas , so perhaps it created a genetic legacy.
Also, interestingly for another etymology related to reed which seems to have reflexes, in most of the branches -
Deletehttp://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+812&root=config
There is a mention of probable connection with Proto-Munda?
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpokorny&text_number=1359&root=config
See this also : http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.2:1:491.soas
If its really of Austric/ Munda origin, which seems to be possible, then i find it very exciting that, it has such vast presence in IE Branches!!.
Although it gives Dravidian instances and i'm not sure what it means, when it says < nadá -- 2 (which is Indo -- ir. and IE. H. W. Bailey TPS 1952, 61) poss. through contact with Drav. (cf. Kan. naḷḷu ʻ reed, Tam. ñeḷ ʻ to be hollow ʼ T. Burrow TPS 1946, 23) or Mu. PMWS 82].
DeleteGiacomo, what they meant?.
Are they saying that the word is IE in Origin but was affected by Drv . ( also Munda perhaps ) ? or they say its ultimately of Drv. ( Munda? ) origin?, which can be of course really interesting.
The Description of the Kannada word is this -
Deletehttp://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:321.burrow
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/search3advanced?dbname=burrow&query=nallu&matchtype=exact&display=utf8
and Tamil word is this-
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:343.burrow
Note that in the Tamil , the form ñeḷ (ñeḷv-, ñeṇṭ-) to become hollow is similar for example Proto-Baltic: *nen̂d-r-iā̃ (2) f , can be just a coincidence though :).
"I think we need aDNA from a more ancient period ( before 3000 BC), to really justify that we can create the concept of this archaic stratum. Modern Autosomal composition can be misleading .
DeleteSSC also had good trade relations with those areas , so perhaps it created a genetic legacy."
Sure, but I think 21% of admixture, if real, suggests a mass migration or the remain of an ancient component rather than a few merchants. I don't say that this admixture reveals an archaic stratum, it can also be a more recent migration from S Asia, directly or through Iran. Its presence on the gulf supports this.
Daniel's proposal of Sundaland is interesting, maybe the migration from there started with the rising of sea level reached even the Persian gulf...
About naḍa/naḷa 'reed', the IE origin is accepted, already by Pokorny, and Mayrhofer cites also Hittite nata, nati 'reed, arrow', Luwian natatta 'like reeds'.
Lith. nendre can give an explanation of Skt. naḍa from nadra, another theory is from *narda, comparing Greek narthex. Another is that cited by Turner, the influence of a non-Aryan word, like Dravidian naḷḷu, causing thus retroflexion in the IE word. In the RV we have also the form nada without retroflexion.
The IE root is thought to be *ned- (nad) 'to sound', which has to do with the flute made of reed.
The Mesopotamia only became populous after large scale irrigation was developed, but that only happened right after the ocean levels stabilized (I am not sure if that is a coincidence). Until then, only hilly regions were cultivated.
DeleteNote that the elevation of oceans happen during the Youngest Dryas, which was an extremely cold and dry period that lasted around 900 years. Right after it, domestication of plants and animals were attested. Some people think it is correlated to YD as a mechanism of survival, but there is no certainty.
I think 21% of admixture, if real, suggests a mass migration or the remain of an ancient component rather than a few merchants..
DeleteThe nature of the results, speaks that the source is not reliable, even if it is National Geographic, because they often create composite components, not real ones.
Thanks for the suggestion on the reed etymology, i agree with you.
Nirjhar, I wonder if real, elementary components exist. ;)
DeleteDaniel, yes, Younger Dryas is thought to be a great impulse for agriculture to overcome the cold and dry period. Probably also in the Persian gulf some areas were submerged by the sea, causing migration towards Mesopotamia. There happened maybe the meeting of the so-called Armenoids speaking a form of IE and Austric speakers. They learned agriculture from the Armenoids and could survive in the plain thanks to irrigation, creating the Sumerian civilization.
Giacomo,
DeleteYes they do. ANE,CHG,WHG etc are acceptable representatives of them :) .
I would say not IE, but Nostratic. Though the region you call Armenia, today is home of North Caucasian, which seems related to Tibeto-Burman and Basque.
DeleteIn anycase, it seems that all 3 (if the origin of Tibeto Burman is in China)- China-South East Asia - Zagros, regions developed agriculture simultaneously. They also seem to be related in a way or other in terms of language.
"ANE,CHG,WHG etc are acceptable representatives of them (elementary components)"
DeleteHow can you prove that? Did the Mal'ta boy or the Georgian hunter-gatherers belong to a pure race?
Daniel, Armenoid does not mean Armenian, is a physical type found in northern West Asia, including Anatolia, Iran and Mesopotamia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenoid_race
However North Caucasian is not in Armenia, is rather to the north.
Nostratic for me is too abstract and speculative, I still prefer distinguishing IE and Semitic loanwords in Sumerian.
Its not about Pure race, its about a pure ancestry. Those samples prove that there were pure ancestry, pure ancestry is also a result of drift.
DeleteI think physical types are quite random, except for some more outward aspects due adaptation. I am not sure if they could be used for anything reliable as mDNA/YDNA. And I still not sure if they are that reliable.
DeleteFor example, I am not sure why there aren't mDNA and Y markers from the interbreeding with Neaderthals.
I agree Daniel that SNP mutations are more reliable compared to Autosomal components , which can be subjected to dilution.
DeleteHowever, we are not talking about physical appearance here :) , Autosomes are a subject of genotype not phenotype :).
Yes, I also agree about SNP. But about pure ancestry, is what I meant with pure race. How can there be a pure ancestry? Those people came from elsewhere, and obviously mixed with different people on the way.
DeletePhysical types are not precise of course, but are not totally useless IMO, I have taken Armenoid from the article about Austric and Sumerian, it is cited as the physical type in Sumerian crania along with Australoid and Austric.
About the data that I cited at the beginning of this debate, they come from a study mainly of the University of Porto called "Genetic Stratigraphy of Key Demographic Events in Arabia": http://www.plosone.org/article/Authors/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0118625
I don't think Pure race and Pure ancestry go along with each other, a pure race can develop a pure ancestry just because of drift naturally or isolation, which can make a huge difference from the same ''race'' it belonged to.
DeleteWell, its not provable that from where they came of course, but what we get that this pure components or at least the indication of it. And how relevant they are to some aDNA or modern people.
Thanks for the reference, but i think they didn't find any real component, but i will take a look.
Another problem with connecting Austrics is that they have high degree of ASI, which is their ''original component'' and is virtually absent outside India, found relevantly among Iranians but not in Arabians or Iraqis AFAIK.
And Pure Ancestry did exist, for example the KO1 from Hungary is a pure WHG!.
DeleteThe question of ASI is to be considered, if Sumerians came from India it should be there, but also the ancient South Asian mtDNA found in Syria is no more there, the arrival of Semitic people and other migrations have changed radically the genetic landscape apparently.
DeleteI have seen Ko1 (an outlier of Hungarian Körös Neolithic) in the paper that we know ;), it is pure blue at certain levels and not at others, how can we justify that? Also Motala12 is pure blue at the highest level, although it is Scandinavian HG and not WHG.
The source of Ko1 is this paper: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141021/ncomms6257/full/ncomms6257.html
There, Ko1 is very close to other HG, but it has also a remarkable quantity of a green component of EEF.
Anyway, can we accept an autosomal DNA identical in two persons? Components are clearly given as approximations, and they take some similar individuals as reference for a particular lineage. EEF and WHG lineages existed, but it is not possible that they were pure, unless they were completely isolated, which almost never happens.
Only aDNA from relevant Sumerians will answer, and that, we can proceed on this or not :) .
DeleteSorry, i gave you wrong instance, it is Loschbur who is 100 % WHG (KO1 92%). Pure Ancestry certainly was there, especially during the post-glacial period, when groups were separated for thousands of years :).
Well, AFAIK Loschbour is the paradigm of WHG, it must be 100%... If we had something older or of another region used as paradigm, it would be different.
DeleteThat's not provable, just like drift :) .
DeleteIt's just a logical consequence of the difference of human beings :)
DeleteLoscbour is indeed Pure, because it don't break with different K's.And also for example KO1 forms a very strong clade with Loschbour and La Brana, so if he's mixed, so are the other two in basically the same ways. In other words, KO1 will be considered WHG, even if he's mixed :).
Deleteah yes, La Brana had 2 samples to avoid confusion :).
DeleteOf course these examples are very similar, and show a remarkable homogeneity in European Hunter gatherers. And of course Loschbour does not break, since it is the paradigm or reference for WHG. It cannot change to something different from itself...
DeleteThe fact is, populations with pure components ( ANE,WHG,EEF,CHG) once existed, they walked this planet and they got admixed, as they should.
DeleteAnd we must also accept that this pure/elementary components are not directly associated with SNP mutations essentially.
and, finding a pure representative, of a certain component, of a certain archaic unmixed population, is not easy by any means . For example, Malta boy (The ANE Modal) was not pure, but they are found from WHG and some EEF samples. With more Sampling, we can hope to find more instances of these kind of populations, who carried only one component.
DeleteKyriakos,
ReplyDeleteHow this comparison sound ? :) .
Sumerian gal; gu-la; gu-ul; gal-gal; ku-ul "(to be) big, great; (to be) retired, former; (to be) mature (of male animals)" with Latin colossus "a statue larger than life," from Greek kolossos "gigantic statue," which is of unknown origin, used by Herodotus of giant Egyptian statues, and used by Romans of the bronze Helios at the entrance to the harbor of Rhodes. Figurative sense of "any thing of awesome greatness or vastness"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=colossus&allowed_in_frame=0
Of course, point me if already, a related discussion is done .
DeleteI have not mentioned kolossos because it seems to be a loanword in Greek (usually words with an ending in -ssos are thought to be of Anatolian origin, mainly Luwian); also I haven't found the exact Anatolian word.
DeleteOne other thing one could think about gal = big is the curious declension of the word big / great in Greek, which seems to include a g-al- like μέγας megas (masc.) but megalou (masc. /neut. gen.) μεγάλη megale (femin); in plural μεγάλοι megaloi (masc) μεγάλες megales (fem.) μεγάλα megala (neuter) etc.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AD%CE%B3%CE%B1%CF%82
Let's connect the Sum. word sabar (written also as sapar) = “net”, with *sper/ spar =” to turn, wind”.
ReplyDeletePokorny’s root sper-3, English meaning “to turn, wind”, German meaning `drehen, winden'
Gr. σπεῖρα f. `Windung, Spirale, alles Geflochtene (z. B. vom Netz, Tau)', σπειράω `winde, wickle', σπείρᾱμα `Windung, Windel'; σπάρτος m. `ein Strauch, aus dessen Ruten man Bander oder Stricke flocht', σπάρτον, σπάρτη `gedrehtes oder geflochtenes Seil'; σπυρίς (ion. σφυρίς) `geflochtener Korb' (aus dem Akk. σπυρίδα stammt durch etrusk. Vermittlung lat. sporta `geflochtener Korb');
alit. spartas `Band'; wahrscheinlich hierher arm. p`arem, p`arim `umschließe, umarme'.
g-Erweiterung spereg-, nas. spreng- `winden, umwickeln, dadurch eng zusammenschnüren'
Gr. σπάργω `wickle ein', σπάργανον `Windel';
lit. springstù, spriñgti `würgen (Intr., beim Schlucken)', sprengė́ti ds., sprangùs `würgend', lett. sprangât `einschnüren'.
http://indo-european.info/pokorny-etymological-dictionary/whnjs.htm (*sper3)
Also from here:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1845.html
Looks good IMO :) .
DeleteThe comparison for tonight is:
ReplyDeletešarag [DRY] (9x: Old Babylonian) wr. šarag; šu-ru-ug; šaragx(|UD.SAR|) "to dry out", with:
k̂sē̆-ro- English meaning dry; bright (of weather) German meaning `trocken'; vom Himmel und Wetter auch `trocken = hell, klar'
Gr. ξερόν (nur Akk.) `festes, trockenes Land', dehnstufig ξηρός `trocken, dürr'; vgl.oben S. 624 ai. kṣará-;
lat. serescunt (Lucil. I 306) `(die Kleider) trocknen (in der Sonne)', serēnus `heiter, hell, klar, trocken' (vom Himmel und Wetter);
ahd. serawēn `trocken werden, tabescere, languere, marcere', mhd. nhd. serben `verdorren, welk werden';
toch. A ksär(k) `Morgen'?
Daß k̂sē̆-ro- eine Erweiterung von k̂sā- `brennen, versengen' sei, ist wahrscheinlich.
From here ( k̂sē̆-ro-)
http://indo-european.info/pokorny-etymological-dictionary/whnjs.htm
Also here:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1054.html
This šarag was also on my list of candidates, but I thought about *skel 'to parch, dry out' and *sker 'to shrink, dry out', according to the change sk>š already supposed for other words.
DeleteNow, like xiphos, I think that xeros can be another inversion, this time of the root *sker. We should create a new phonetic law for Greek!
Latin serenus, seresco is interesting, I think it's possible that it comes from *kser-, because initial x is only in Greek loanwords in Latin.
Ah, maybe it's better not to give the links of indo-european.info because they give always the first page.
Sum. šarag = “to dry out” looks in form like zalag; if we follow the same pattern like σελαγέω in Greek we could have [*σχαραγέω] or [*σχεραγέω] which (though actually non existing) look quite normal; a related word could be Gr. εσχάρα eskhara meaning “hearth” (connected to French “escarre”, also poossibly to english scar). There is also Greek χέρσος khersos = “dry land” (like in χερσόνησος “chersonese”, peninsula), also σχερός skheros, “ursprünglich das feste Land, die Erdfeste, das Ufer“; the name of island of the Phaecians in Odyssey is called Σχερία Skheria (thought to be the island of Kerkyra / Corfu).
Deletehttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=scar
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=xe%2Frsos&la=greek&can=xe%2Frsos0
http://greek_german.deacademic.com/71269/%CF%83%CF%87%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82
Also this one:
ReplyDeletesum [BEARD] (85x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. sum4 "beard; carved beard (for statues)" sum4 (sun4) Akk. ziqnu, with:
smek- English meaning chin, beard German meaning `Kinn, Mundpartie, Bart'
im ai. mit k̂ Ai. śmaśru- n. `Bart, Schnurrbart' (assim. aus *smaśru-); arm. mauruk`, moruk` `Bart'; alb. mjekrë `Kinn, Bart' (*smekrā); vielleicht lat.māla `Kinnbacke, Kinnlade', Demin. maxilla (*smek-slā, dessen Vokal mit dem arm. a vergleichbar wäre); ir. smech `Kinn' (*smekā), vermutlich ags.smǣras m. Pl. `Lippen' (*smahria-), dazu als `Lippenblütler' nisl. smǣra f., smāri m., norw. dän.smǣre m., schwed. dial. smäre m. `Кlее', nach anderen zu smei- `lächeln'; lit. smãkras m., smakrà f. `Kinn', lett. smakrs `Kinn, Gaumen'; hitt. zama(n)kur `Bart' (*smokur oder *smokru-).
Yes, Sanskrit Shmashru-
Deletehttp://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=zmazru&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=
I think very comparable :) .
A paper of A. Bomhard with a Sumerian - Nostratic comparison:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.academia.edu/2210954/On_the_Origin_of_Sumerian_1997_
e [HOUSE] (13124x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Ebla, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, uncertain, unknown) wr. e2; ĝa2; e4 "house; temple; (temple) household; station (of the moon)?; room; house-lot; estate" Akk. bītu
ReplyDeletee2; engir dialect
ĝa2 emensal dialect
e4(a) engir
Suggested protoform eĝa
Possible cognates:
Pokorny Etymon: 1. en 'in'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0477.html
Pokorny Etymon: 2. me- 'by, with, amidst, around'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1232.html
Pokorny Etymon: 3. nei-, ni- IE ni- in
Pokorny Etymon: i-, nei- 1. en in
Pokorny Etymon: 2. me- 'by, with, amidst, around'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1232.html
Pokorny Etymon: medhi-, medhi̯o- 'middle'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1240.html
éni - in
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%81%C3%A9n#cite_note-DV_in-1
I add
DeletePokorny Etymon: u̯eik̑-, u̯ik̑-, u̯oik̑o- 'house, village, settlement'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P2121.html
About e = house, temple etc maybe it was pronounced like he or hei (or hai).
DeleteFrom Wikipedia: “Sumerian É.GAL "palace" is the probable etymology of Semitic words for "palace, temple", such as Hebrew היכל heikhal and Arabic هيكلhaykal. It has thus been speculated that the word É originated from something akin to *hai or *ˀai, especially since the cuneiform sign È is used for /a/ in Eblaite.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89_(temple)
Considering the PIE reference, which is similar to the ones you mention, it was something likel hgl. E is used in a number of different words, so it looks like a type of prefix. But I don't think *hai is the protoform, since it is difficult to justify the nasal form of the emensal form, though something like the juxtaposition ik̑ , of u̯oik̑o, positions the tongue more strongly against the palate, forcing a more nasalized form.
DeleteThere is also ĝal = to dwell to live, but e-gal = palace, temple may be from e = house and gal = big (though I think there is also a writing e-ĝal). On the other hand ĝa may be written also as ma, which looks like the Sum. word for "boat, ship" if I remember well.
DeleteIn Greek, from u̯eik̑ there is οἶκος oikos = house, dwelling; there is also in Greek a more archaic word, that is ναός naos = "temple, shrine", maybe from ναίω naio = to inhabit, to dwell; at the Septuagint (the hellenistic translation of the jewish Bible), the word hekhal is translated as naos. http://bibleapps.com/greek/3485.htm
naos doesn't seem to have a IE etymology, though. It looks also like naus = boat, ship in Greek.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteCompare ( I suspect the Sumerian word is a conjugation ) :
ReplyDeleteSumerian luĝa "to submerge oneself in water" with Proto-Indo-European *wleikʷ- “to run, flow” Irish fliuch ‘wet’, Tocharian A lyīktsi ‘to wash’, Latin liquidus "fluid, liquid, moist''.
TOB Version :
Proto-IE: *wleyǝkʷ-
Meaning: wet
Tokharian: A, B lik- 'wash' (Adams 553)
Baltic: *leîk-n-a- (1) c., *leîk-n-ā̂ (1), *leĩk-n-jā̂, *leĩk-n-iā̃, *leîk-n-iā̃ (1) f., *laîk-š-iā̃ f.
Latin: liqueō, licuī, -ēre `flüssig sein', liquēsco `flüssig werden', liquāre `flüssig machen, schmelzen'; liquidus `flüssig'; līquor, līquī `flüssig sein', liquor, gen. -ōris m. `Flüssigkeit'; lixa f. `Wasser; Lauge'
Celtic: *wlikʷti-, *wlikʷso-: OIrl fliuch `feucht', OCymr gulip `feucht', Cymr glwith `Tau', gwlyp `feucht', gwlych `Feuchtigkeit', OCorn glibor `Feuchtigkeit', MBret gloeb `feucht', Bret gleb `feucht'.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+667&root=config
And the Nostratic forms are also close.
The original reconstruction is luĝ, the a is added by ePSD, I think it can be put together with luh 'to wash, clean', IE lu, lau-: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1203.html
DeleteThe nasal ĝ may be a suffix.
me [DESIRE] (3x: Old Babylonian) wr. me "desire" (akk. lalû)
ReplyDeletewith Root: mē-5, mō-, mǝ-
English meaning: to have a strong will; to be intent on smth.
German meaning: `heftigen und kräftigen Willens sein, heftig streben'
Material: Gr. μαίομαι (äol. μάομαι) `strebe, trachte', wozu die Namen Εὔμαιος, Οἰνόμαος, Μαίων (*mǝ-i̯o-); mit Intensivredupl. μαιμάω `verlange heftig' (-μᾰω mit Red.-Stufe der Wz. wie δαι-δάλλω usw.), Infin. μω̃σθαι `streben', Partiz. μώμενος; μω̃ται (Epich.) ζητει̃, τεχνάζεται Hes. (und andere Glossen), aus dem o-stufigen Perf. erwachsen; Μου̃σα `Muse' hierher oder zu mendh-?
auf einem Partiz. *ματός beruht ματεύω `suche, suche auf; strebe'; Partiz. *μαστός, wo nach auch μαστεύω = ματεύω; ματει̃ ζητει̃ Hes.;
lat. mōs, mōris `die jedem eigene Art; Sitte; durch Gewohnheit festgewordener Brauch', mōrōsus `eigensinnig';
got. mōþs (-d-) `Mut, Zorn' (mōdags `zornig'), ahd. mhd. muot `Kraft des Empfindens; Geist, Mut, Zorn, Begehren, Entschluß', nhd. Mut, Gemüt, ags. mōd ds., aisl. mōðr `Zorn';
baltoslav. *matō `nehme wahr' in lett. matu, mast `wahrnehmen, fühlen', ursprüngl. Iterativ lit. mataũ, matýti `sehen', lett. matu, matît `empfinden', lit. matrùs `vorsichtig'; auf einem Subst. *motro- beruht ksl. moštrjǫ, motriti `spectare', usw.; dazu wohl abg. sъ-mějo, -měti `wagen'.
Also here:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1237.html
Perhaps add Sanskrit mati : intellect, idea, devotion,prayer,opinion etc etc and of course 'wish,desire''.
Deleteor this?
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=mad&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0
Maybe simply to : Sanskrit mAti { mA verb. ''think'' }...
mati comes from the root man/mṇ- of manas 'mind': http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1282.html
DeleteIt is not written there but Mayrhofer obviously derive it from that root.
About Sum. me, in all the three examples it corresponds to Akk. lalû "plenty, exuberance; desire" So, desire is only one sense and I think it is possible that 'me' means also plenty. This meaning can also be derived from the meaning 'to be', as in Sanskrit the verb bhū 'being, becoming' gave also bhava 'coming to being, becoming, existence, well-being, prosperity' and bhūti 'well-being, prosperity, wealth'.
The root of maiomai is not sure, Chantraine does not give any, but observes that it must be mas-, because of μαστηρ master 'searcher', μασμα masma 'search' and so on.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis was inspired by my mother's birthday, today:
ReplyDeleteStandard Mandarin: muqin - mother - mu (variation of ma, mother) qin (relative). Qin (pronounced like tchin) in old chinese was reconstructed by Sagart - Baxter in 2014 as tschin (parents). Mu was reconctructed as məʔ
http://ocbaxtersagart.lsait.lsa.umich.edu/
Compare with emensal, mu-tin, for young woman
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3056.html
Related to PIE gene- :
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0566.html
kin (n.) Look up kin at Dictionary.com
c. 1200, from Old English cynn "family; race; kind, sort, rank; nature; gender, sex," from Proto-Germanic *kunjam "family" (cognates: Old Frisian kenn, Old Saxon kunni, Old Norse kyn, Old High German chunni "kin, race;" Danish and Swedish kön, Middle Dutch, Dutch kunne "sex, gender;" Gothic kuni "family, race," Old Norse kundr "son," German Kind "child"), from PIE *gene- "to produce" (see genus).
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kin&allowed_in_frame=0
Hello Guys,
ReplyDeleteCompare : Sumerian haza { ha-za; ha-ha-za; ha-ha-ze2 } ''to hold' with Sanskrit hasta 'hand,fore arm'from PIE g̑hasta- 'arm, hand'.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0670.html
Other related roots are :
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0669.html
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+379&root=config
The Anatolian forms in Pokorny do have the š sound.
It looks interesting, it follows again the change g'h>h and z can be interpreted as coming from st or from sr/sar-. Or maybe IE adds a suffix to a root g'has-. The connection of holding and hand is obvious, and here the IE noun can be derived from the verbal root.
DeleteWhy do you mention the š sound? Sum. z should not be close to it.
More on hand :),
ReplyDeleteCompare : Sumerian šu; sum5; šu-x "hand" with Sanskrit shaya and shama ''hand''.
Of course the above Sanskrit words is related to the root of lying .
Now, i don't know is this proposed before or not and if it is technically sound or not.
Sumerian ĝal2; ma-al; ga2gal2 "to be (there, at hand, available); to exist; to put, place, lay down; to have" with Sanskrit Kuli ''hand''.
There is also the chinese word shǒu "hand".
DeleteThe OC by Baxter Sagart 2014 is *n̥uʔ .
DeleteMaybe from *sny or *hny? Also in Hurrian hand is su-ni.
Deletehttps://books.google.gr/books?id=6MbuYAWdKh4C&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=old+chinese+word+for+hand&source=bl&ots=OdU0ibKiGu&sig=Fs1He3mTKBXwg_9JZjUpMkwqGu4&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjvyqzX4LDKAhUFXRoKHUXKC3kQ6AEIKzAG#v=onepage&q=old%20chinese%20word%20for%20hand&f=false
http://cdli.ucla.edu/pubs/cdlj/2014/cdlj2014_004.html
Sum dilib "hair" (Akk. uruhhu) looks like Farsi zulf = "strand of hair, hair".
ReplyDeleteThe word has entered demotic Greek through turkish zülüf, that’s why I know it; yet I have no idea about its etymology.
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ReplyDeleteNotify me if already there :
DeleteSumerian lam "cutting" compare this with Sanskrit lU ''dividing, cutting''', Sanskrit la ''cutting'' .
Not sure this root can be related or not.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1184.html
TOB Version :
Proto-IE: *law[e]-/-e-
Meaning: to cut
Old Indian: lunā́ti, lunóti, ptc. lūna- `to cut, sever, cut off'; láva- m. `cutting, reaping; anything cut off, section', lāva- `cutting', lāvaka- m. `cutter, reaper'; lavitra- n. `implement for cutting, sickle', lavi- m. `iron instrument for cutting or clearing'
Old Greek: acc. lâi̯o-n Ben. eines Teils des Pfluges, wahrsch. `Pflugschar'
Germanic: *lū-ja- vb., *law-a- adj., *laww-ṓ f., *liw-an m.
Compare : Sumerian ge "blow; wound; stroke of the stylus; (piece of) writing, copy, exemplar, written" with Sanskrit gha ''striking,killing, stroke''.
ReplyDeleteCompare Sumerian tar "to cut down; to untie, loosen; to cut etc
ReplyDeletewith *dhreu- (Pokorny)
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fie%2Fgermet&text_number=++1305&root=config
Compare Sumerian du, or rather dru (according to ePSD) = "to do, to make, to act, to perform"
ReplyDeletewith *deru-, dra- 'to work' (Pokorny), like the Greek word δράω drao = to do, to act and δράμα drama "action, performance, doing"
some links:
Deletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0347.html
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=dra/w1
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2865&root=config
I certainly think is good, but the problem is it lack Asian parallels?.
DeleteIt's curious the semantic resemblance with Pokorny Etymon: 2. dhē- 'to do, put, place, set'. I think thie -ro appeared somewhere else in our discussions
DeleteYes, that is also the root of English to do. Apparently the vowel u is not attested out of Germanic (German tun 'to do'), where it is derived from ō.
DeleteHowever, in Kartvelic *dew/dw- means 'to lay':
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fkart%2fkartet&text_number=+328&root=config
How about comparing Sumerian bar/bad ''wall/fortification'' to Sanskrit vATa वाट ''wall,fencing, enclosure of a village consisting of boundary trees,garden'' etc etc .
ReplyDeleteI don't know the IE root at the moment.
Notify if already discussed...
Also Sanskrit vAr ''protector,defender,water,pond'' etc etc , vArya ''wall'' .
Deletevāṭa is interpreted as coming from the same root of vārya, a Prakrit evolution of vṛta 'concealed, enveloped, surrounded' with the typical change ṛ to a.
DeleteBut where is Sum. bar?
But where is Sum. bar?
Deleteegar ''wall''
e2-gar8; ba-ar; ba9-ar2 "wall".
Pardon me if i'm wrong :) .
I see, baar there is the Emesal reading, as in ibi instead of igi 'eye'. It seems that a similar alternation is found in Austric and Japanese. In IE it would suggest a labiovelar, but a root *gwar- is not attested with this meaning. However, egar corresponds to Akk. igāru. CDA says it comes from Sum., but according to Starostin there is a Semitic root *ʔigār- 1, 2 ~ *gʷar- 3 The labiovelar is attested e.g. in Amharic (Ethiopia) gwaro:
Deletehttp://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fsemet&text_number=+644&root=config
So this seems a Semitic word, while bad is different.
It seems interesting, a very important word, protector defending, coming int o sanskrit. Maybe they cooperated in military affairs?
DeleteI think this is discussed before? :
ReplyDeleteSumerian ze ''dirt''{Akk. erşetu "earth, land".} compare the Baltic and Iranic forms here -
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0620.html
It is interesting that in Lithuanian there is Žemyna '' the goddess of the earth''.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDemyna
Compare that with Zamin in Persian and Hindi for "land", In Bengali the Persian word has become Zomi.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+395&root=config
DeleteOh yes, there is also Avestan zā 'earth, ground', but also Cypriot zas 'earth' instead of Ionic 'ge'. So, also a kentum language could have z for IE *g'(h).
DeleteWe have seen that g'h gives h in Sumerian (mah, maybe rah and haza), but here the root is *dg'ham or g'hdham, which could have given a different sound, or we can suppose an Iranic loanword.
When we were talking about Sum. zukum, I had an impression that it resembles to dhghom somehow.
DeleteI mean like pedon = firm land and ped- for foot in Greek ("tread" - "earth").
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DeleteIf you take the borrowing directly from PIE , dhghom can easily yield zikum in sumeriam. First, by the assimilation of the h after consonants (CVC pattern of sumerin), with the change of gh->k accordingly due the influence of the h;
Deletethen by transforming d-> z (this may happen in several italic branches when followed by i).
So dhghom ->dəkom -> zikum (o and u likely had similar pronounciations)
zu, from zukum, can also be represented by a double ze(zi)
Deletecompare:
zukum
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e6590.html
2xze(zi)
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e6543.html
I couldn't find the sign form kum. But in Chinese, putting signs together means something related to quantity or multitude.
"d-> z (this may happen in several italic branches when followed by i)"
DeleteFor instance?
The alternation d/z from an IE palatal is attested in Greek, but here the palatal should give k. Anyway, I am skeptical about the verb 'to tread' or 'footprint' coming from the word for earth. The case of pedon is the opposite. Your remark about zeer is important, what about the second sign, the square? I think I have already seen it...
The other sign is the sign of lagab = "block".
DeleteThe whole sign is ZI+ZI.LAGAB (Forms: ZIZILAGAB, ZIZIE$2, ZIZIA, AZIZI)
blockhttp://psd.museum.upenn.edu/PSD/html/ascii/sumsyl/sign/zipzi-lagab.htm#top
Giacomo, see this word, probably you will be able to identify many more in italian: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mezzo
DeleteIn many Brazilian portuguese dialects, d changed to dj. I am thinking about mutation in language change in general.
In the case of 2xri, it would mean a semantic change, from a simple footprint. But to a multitude of footprints. One of the possible cases is land.
All of this use the symbol for tread:
Deletezi [CHIRP] wr. zi "to chirp (birds)" Akk. şabāru ša işşuri
zi [CUT] wr. zi2; zi; zix(|IGI@g|) "to cut, remove; to erase" Akk. baqāmu; barāšu; naţāpu; nasāhu
zi [LIFE] wr. zi; ši; ši-i "life" Akk. napištu
zid [RIGHT] wr. zid "right; to be right, true, loyal"
zig [RISE] wr. zig3 "to issue; to levy, raise, muster; to swell; to expend; to rise" Akk. dekû; gapāšu; tebû; şītu
zir [BREAK] wr. zi; zi-ir; ze2-er "to tear out; to break, destroy; to be troubled; to erase" Akk. ašāšu; pasāsu
It's interesting to notice an exception to the pattern. Zid and Zir are usually the main words, so some say it is used in place of retroflex d.
But one is zig, meaning swellwith common alternate readings of zigga, zigge, meaning to raise, swell, issue.
But the zi in zikum is a double on the sign.
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DeleteKyriakos,
DeleteI found all these alternate readings for LAGAB:
LAGAB
gilim [ROPE] wr. gilim; kilib "rope of twined reeds" Akk. kilimbu
girim [FLOWER] wr. gi-rin; gi4-rin; girim; ĝešgi-rim "(to be) pure; (to be) clear; a fruit; a tree; a flower; olive" Akk. ellu; girimmu; hulamīsu; illūru; serdu
gur [THICK] wr. gur4; gur14; gur13 "(to be) thick; (to be) big, to feel big" Akk. ebû; rabû; kabru
hab [MALODOROUS] wr. hab2; hab "(to be) malodorous, fetid; (to be) redolent; (to be) dark or stained; (to be) bittersweet" Akk. alappānu; bīšu; ekēlu; happu
hab [POT] wr. hab "a pot"
kid [BREAK] wr. kid2; gir8; kid4; kid7 "to break off, pinch off" Akk. karāşu
kilib [TOTAL] wr. kilib; kilib3 "total, sum; (the) whole, entirety; assembly" Akk. napharu; puhru
kir [GROVEL] wr. kir3 "to grovel, roll around" Akk. qarāru
lagab [BLOCK] wr. lagab; na4lagab "block; stump (of tree)" Akk. upqu
lagab [DEBT-NOTE] wr. lagab "debt-note" Akk. hišû
lagab [EXCESS] wr. lagab "excess" Akk. atartu
lagab [RAIL] wr. lagab "rail, fence, side-wall" Akk. kutlu
lugud [SHORT] wr. lugud2; lugud3 "(to be) short; (to be) tight; (to be) short of breath" Akk. kurû
niĝin [ENCIRCLE] wr. niĝin2; niĝin "to prowl, roam; to enclose, confine; to encircle; to search; to turn; to return; to go around; to tarry" Akk. esēru; lawû; sahāru; târu; târu; sahāru; şâdu
niĝin [TOTAL] wr. niĝin2; niĝin "total, sum; (the) whole, entirety" Akk. napharu
tukur [CHEW] wr. tukur2; tukur; tukur3 "to chew, gnaw; to shear, pluck wool" Akk. gaşaşu; kasāsu; sepû siki
tukur [IMPORTANT] wr. tukur2; tukur "important" Akk. kabtu
I couldn't find the forms you mention. It seems that the meaning for kum is not among them. Perhaps zikum is an extended sign, where several signs are put in sequence. In this case, it means many footprints within an enclosed place? Land?
Or field. The same signs are used not only for zukum but also for numun2 ("alfalfa grass), and šub5 ("rush, sedge"). Look at the sign list (ZI.ZI.LAGAB).
Deletehttp://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/signlist.php
The procedure from dhghom to Skt. ksam is seen here:
Deletehttps://books.google.gr/books?id=cWDhKTj1SBYC&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82&dq=dheghom+earth&source=bl&ots=iVwmPkBWBl&sig=-66gPaKV_yezgLHZ_5sckvYCR3E&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilgfea-sHKAhXFvBoKHUMlB50Q6AEIMjAE#v=onepage&q=dheghom%20earth&f=false
Supposing that zukum was a loanword from dhghom, in my opinion it might be at a “dzhom” stage (dhgh- > dzh-), then became dz(o)hom for euphonic reasons.
But Giacomo has right, it could not mean just “earth”. Maybe the meaning was “down”, “to the ground”, like in Greek χαμαί khamai = “down to the ground, low” or Latin humi, with almost the same meaning. Also χθαμαλός khthamalos in Greek, humilis in Latin (for example χθαμαλόω khthamaloō as a verb means to level things or make them even or low). Maybe the meaning low was applied also to these plants, like grass or rush… There is also a word ἴχνος ikhnos ikh-nos = “footprint, trace” (or ἴχμα ikhma ikh-ma, according to Hesychius), of obscure origin, and I wonder if it could come from the same root.
It was at an earlier, perhaps intermediate stage, sing g was not lost, instead of h, which was the one absorbed. So, it was at a bit further than dhgh stege, like this dhg -> dzg
DeleteThank you for giving the link of that explanation, it can be useful also for an article about the etymology of Greek 'ge' that I am planning with a friend.
DeleteIf zukum had the meaning 'earth' I would consider a connection with dhg'ham, although difficult, but for the meaning 'to tread' we need a different root.
Maybe is interesting that there is a Dravidian root tuk/tok- meaning 'to tread, stamp the feet': http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:954.burrow
But also in IE we have a root *stu/stau(k)- 'to push, thrust', not very specific but interesting for the initial st-: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1903.html
with initial st- there is also *steig, Starostin -and probably others- think that Latin vestigium comes from it. In Greek there is στίβος stibos and στείβω steibo, from *steip; it seems though remote from zukum.
Deletehttp://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2553&root=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=++2590&root=config
Not quite sure about it; yet let’s compare Sumerian rugu = "to withstand; to sail upstream" with Greek ἀρκέω arkeō and Latin arceo = ward off, keep off, defend etc,
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%80%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%AD%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/arceo
Ru-gu can also be alternatively written as Ri
Deletehttp://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1368.html
Which means
ere [GO] (68x: Ur III) wr. re; er; e-ra; erx(|DU.DU|); re6; re7; er-re; i-ri "perfect plural stem of ĝen[to go]" Akk. alāku
The oldest form is erx(|DU.DU|)
Gun (Gu2)
(http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1944.html)
No, notice the most primitive form erergun. Compare with alāku, from akadian.
It gives here:ʾlk (a-i)ʾalāku go, walk, move about (vent)"(B, A)
http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~asahala/verblist.html
So, a probable primitive form of rigu is erergum, which, by comparing with Akkadiam alāku, should be something like walking with a load, whichi is indeed similar to withstand. It's also similar to
areq- to lock, guard, protect'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0114.html
I cannot say which came first though. But, since sumerian probalby has verbal form attached to its meaning, it might be the original source.
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ReplyDeleteCan be just accidental :
ReplyDeleteSumerian susu "a reed" compare Sanskrit suSi ''tube, hole of a reed or crane''.
Also :
DeleteSumerian šeš "a metal or reed object" , Akkadian šušû "a metal or reed item".
Sum. ša-šu-ru-um "a reed object"
Sum. šutug; šutug2 "reed-hut, reed shelter, reed altar" Akk. šutukku "reed-hut, reed shelter".
Sum. sun ''redd shoot''.
Sum. ša-šu-ru-um "a reed object"
Sum. še-er-tab "a reed fence". etc etc..
Perhaps this can be related?.
Deletehttp://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=sUrmi&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=
The shu, common to many reed, means:
Deletesur [LOCUS] (127x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. su7 "threshing floor; abandonment" Akk. maškanu; nidûtu
Su7su7, has a radical gi, http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1661.html showing the type of object to which is referring with that sound,
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e5081.html
Given the lack of alternate forms, it looks like a borrowing.
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e5070.html
This is likely to be the origin of of the word susu, a reduplication of
Deletek̑el- 'thin shaft, stalk'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0892.html
This might had reflated on the choice of su7 or sur, since it also similar to the satem reflex sel. This is probably an imported item so, it should be a borrowing due commerce. It only appears after IVC is growing strong.
The Skt. word śuṣi or suṣi are probably related to the verb śuṣ 'to hiss' and śvas- 'to blow, hiss, pant', from the IE root *k'was/k'us-: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1077.html
DeleteBut why not a direct comparison with sanskrit. Sumer and SSC had commerce and this is the kind of thing that could be traded. I don't see any reason to go back all the way to PIE.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI cannot answer the comment to Kyriakos bellow his comment, so I will continue here:
ReplyDelete"Or field. The same signs are used not only for zukum but also for numun2 ("alfalfa grass), and šub5 ("rush, sedge"). Look at the sign list (ZI.ZI.LAGAB)."
It's also notice able that that numun and shub5 refer to types of grass, and it is likely that the meanings changed for prace to place, whereas zukum has a meaning not related to plants. Shub5se is barley for example. And besides it, it seems only the zukum can be linked, as far as now, in my opinion, to PIE and Akkadian.
Now, into the examples:
http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/edition2/signlist.php
shub5, though is attested in a much latter date:
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e5492.html
numun2 is much more varied and is accompanied by a radical u2, which is used to point out that this word is related to plants, herbs, and foods derived from seeds.
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4440.html
Note the forms (5) and (7) which are from emensal and are read shumu and shumun, and may be linked to shub5. It's likely that the protoform of shub/shumum/numun was confused with a proto form zukum, thus the use of the radical u2 for numun.
The presence of the form numun, with u2, hints for nshumgum vs. the protoform dzukum (the romance analogy). The pressure to CVC forms eliminated g, making mg->b or m, and nsh->n or sh
Among the words written with the LAGAB sign is the following one:
ReplyDeleteniĝin [ENCIRCLE] wr. niĝin2; niĝin "to prowl, roam; to enclose, confine; to encircle; to search; to turn; to return; to go around; to tarry" Akk. esēru; lawû; sahāru; târu; târu; sahāru; şâdu
The word, written with one or two LAGAB signs, seems to be a reduplication (nin nin > niĝin or ni ni > ninni)
The comparison is to the root *nes with a meaning of “returning”.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1380.html
The Greek words here are νέομαι neomai = to return, get home, to go and νόστος nostos = returning, homecoming (I’m not sure why ναός naos = temple is put among the cognates of this root). νέομαι neomai has also a second (reduplicated) type νίσσομαι nissomai, perhaps from *νίνσομαι *ninsomai (ni-ns-omai), though, as Chantraine says, it normally should be νίννομαι ninnomai. Also nostos and algos = pain make the word νοσταλγία nostalgia.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=nostalgia
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dne%2Fomai
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dni%2Fssomai
It has been noticed a similar Etruscan word with the same meaning:
Deletenane, nanu "one who turns, folds from here to there"
http://etruscans1.tripod.com/Language/EtruscanN.html
I forgot the ePSD link: http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/e4234.html
DeleteThat doesn't seem LAGAB, but one of the components of it.
DeleteThis sign LAGAB is a square (though its archaic form is a circle).
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DeleteSorry, I thought you were calling zukum as lagab. The way it is used, lagab is a radical for ZI/ZI.
DeleteThis is zagab
lagab [BLOCK] (116x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. lagab; na4lagab "block; stump (of tree)" Akk. upqu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3239.html
Other without a radical:
lagab [DEBT-NOTE] wr. lagab "debt-note" Akk. hišû
lagab [EXCESS] wr. lagab "excess" Akk. atartu
lagab [RAIL] wr. lagab "rail, fence, side-wall" Akk. kutlu
Lagab and niĝin may or may not had the same or similar pronunciation, initially.
DeleteThe meaning though close is not the same, but let's try this:
ReplyDeleteSumerian lum “excrement” and IE leu-, *leuu- : lu- “dirt”
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1183.html
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pollution
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=%2Fdata%2Fnostr%2Fnostret&text_number=+116&root=config
I am not a supporter of Out Of India model at the moment. However, from a paper by Elst thanks to Giacomo , we find an interesting piece on the relation between IE and Sumerian :
ReplyDeletehttps://www.academia.edu/20086861/_Some_unlikely_tentacles_of_early_Indo-European_published_as_ch.3_in_Angela_Marcantonio_and_Girish_Nath_Jha_eds._Perspectives_on_the_Origins_of_Indian_Civilization_Center_for_Indic_Studies_Dartmouth_MA_and_DK_Printworld_Delhi_2013_from_Dartmouth_conference_2011
Interested people can read it (see section 6. Indo-European and pre-Sumerian).
Elst adopts the laryngeal theory and finds one or two possible cognates. Perhaps Giacomo should also consider that?
Delete