Since the comments have become too numerous, I create here a new post for proposals on parallels of Sumerian and Indo-European and other related comments, while the list remains on the previous post also for future additions.
So, let's go on with this subtle work of connection of civilizations!
So, let's go on with this subtle work of connection of civilizations!
Oh, Thank you!
ReplyDeleteFor 6 (ash) and 8(ussu): six here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_numerals
ReplyDelete6 is listed as with some optimism:
***
six *s(w)eḱs; originally perhaps *weḱs
eight *oḱtō, *oḱtou
******
Number 7 in Sumerian is “imin”. Epsd gives it as imin = seven, Halloran as imin = seven; totality; innumerable; all. According to O. Edzard, which gives it rather as umin (or umun) “The etymologically “correct” imin, used by most Assyriologists, is not attested at all in lexical glosses, but occurs in sign names” (pages 63-64 of the “Sumerian Grammar”).
Deletehttps://ia801604.us.archive.org/32/items/SumerianGrammarhdo/SumerianGrammar.pdf
This umin = “seven, totality, all” looks like Latin “omnis” = “everything, all” (though not “seven”, which is septem).
Wiktionary gives this etymology for omnis:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omnis
But probably there is an ambiguity about it:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=omni-
Yes, Lets continue,
ReplyDeleteToday i give a not so sure one.
Sumerian gu "to eat, consume" with khādá 3864 khādá m. ʻ food ʼ AV. [√khād]
Tir. kho ʻ food ʼ.
*khādadhana -- .
3865 khāˊdati ʻ chews, bites ʼ RV., ʻ eats ʼ ŚBr. 2. Pp. khāditá -- ŚBr. 3. Caus. khādayati Mn. 4. Pass. khādyatē Mr̥cch. [√khād]
Pa. khādati ʻ eats ʼ, BHSk. khāyati, NiDoc. khatva absol., Pk. khāaï, khāi (3rd pl. khāaṁti, khaṁti), Gy. pal. 3 sg. ḳar, as. xa -- , arm. xa -- , xath -- (th?), Ḍ. khāna, Tir. khā -- (1 sg. khām, 2 khās, 1 pl. khāma), Niṅg. xuy -- , Woṭ. Bshk. Tor. Mai. khā -- , Phal. kha<->
-- 204 --
(1 sg. khūm), Sh. gil. khoĭki̯ (1 sg. kha̯m), koh. gur. khōnṷ, K. ḍoḍ. khāṇo, L. khāvaṇ, P. khāṇā, WPah. bhad. bhal. khāṇū, paṅ. cur. cam. khāṇā, Ku. khāṇo, N. khānu, A. khāiba, B. khāoyā, Or. khāibā, Mth. khāeb, Bhoj. khāil, OAw. khāi, lakh. khābu, H. khānā, Marw. khābo, G. khāvũ, M. khāṇẽ, Ko. khāuṁk, Si. kanavā, mald. ma kanī ʻ I am eating ʼ. -- With i from píbati: K. khyonu (khĕwān ʻ I am eating ʼ), kash. khĕunu, S. khiaṇu; Or. khiāibā caus., OH. khiyānā.
2. Pa. khādita -- , khāyita -- , NiDoc. khayidaǵa, 3 pl. pret. khayitaṁti; Gy. pal. ḳḗră ʻ he ate ʼ, arm. xaliv ʻ flesh ʼ, eur. xalo ʻ ate ʼ, N. khāyo; Or. khā pi ʻ eating and drinking ʼ, Mth. khāy ʻ act of eating ʼ; H. khāyā ʻ ate ʼ; G. khāī f. ʻ food, pastry ʼ; Si. kā̤ ʻ eaten ʼ, mald. ma kēmī ʻ I ate ʼ. -- Replaced by anal. formations: S. khādho m., °dhi f. ʻ food ʼ; L. P. khādhā ʻ eaten ʼ, G. khādhũ, OM. khādilā, M. khād f. ʻ nourishment ʼ.
3. S. khāiṇu ʻ to eat ʼ; -- replaced by Pa. khādāpēti ʻ gives to eat, feeds ʼ, Pk. khāviyaṁta -- pass. ʻ being fed ʼ, K. khyāwun, P. khuvāuṇā, bhaṭ. khuāṇā, WPah. bhad. khuwāṇū, N. khuwāunu, A. khuwāiba, B. khāoyāna, Or. khuāibā, H. khawānā, OMarw. khuvāi, Si. kavanavā.
4. Pa. khajjati ʻ is eaten ʼ, Pk. khajjaï, Sh. koh. khaǰižōnṷ, S. khã̄jaṇu, L. khājaṇ, (Ju.) khāj̄aṇ, awāṇ. khājīnā pres. part.
Addenda: khāˊdati. 1. S.kcch. khāyṇū, khaĩṇū, kheṇū ʻ to eat ʼ, khārāyṇū ʻ to feed ʼ; WPah.kṭg. (kc.) khāˊṇõ ʻ to eat ʼ; J. Garh. khāṇu; OMarw. khāi ʻ eats, enjoys ʼ, Md. kanī (pp. kē) ʻ eats ʼ.
3. khādayati: WPah.kṭg. (kc.) khe/uṇõ ʻ to give to eat ʼ, kc. khilauṇo, khəl°; Md. kevenī ʻ gets eaten ʼ
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:236.soas
For the one with eat, the best I coudl find is 452 ghō̆s- to eat, pokorny, though does not give reflexes. The reflexes for others are not compatible and have a very different semantic
DeleteYou can see the reflexes here, although there are some mistakes: http://proto_roots.enacademic.com/606/gh%C5%8D%CC%86_s-
Deletejakṣiti is not refused by Mayrhofer, and what appears as ghusi is ghāsi.
I think it is very dubious to connect both kha and ghas to gu.
I just saw some resemblance between gu and "gosto"(of to taste) in Portuguese and I found the etymology:
Delete*ǵews-
to taste, try
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/%C7%B5ews-
Pokorkny, lists as:
Pokorny Etymon: g̑eus- 'to taste, degust, enjoy'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0584.html
Now, I try to compare Sumerian tuš "to sit (down); to dwell, "with PIE *sthā- (sth-) "to stand, set down, make or be firm,stay" Sanskrit tisthati "stands;" Avestan histaiti "to stand;" Persian -stan "country," literally "where one stands;" Greek histemi "put, place, cause to stand; weigh," stasis "a standing still," statos "placed," stater "a weight, coin," stylos "pillar;" Latin sistere "stand still, stop, make stand, place, produce in court," status "manner, position, condition, attitude," stare "to stand," statio "station, post;" Lithuanian stojus "place myself," statau "place;" Old Church Slavonic staja "place myself," stanu "position;" Gothic standan, Old English standan "to stand," stede "place," steall "place where cattle are kept;" also Hittie istanta ''to stay,delay,'' tittanu '' to set up'' etc
ReplyDeletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1873.html
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/steh%E2%82%82-
The second could also be http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1877.html
DeletePokorny Etymon: stāk-, stek- 'to place, stand' which means to resist. The k at the end could corresond to the sh of sumerian.
My proposal tonight is to compare this Sum.word:
ReplyDeletepiriĝ = “lion, bull, wild bull” with
*ghwer- (or ĝhu̯ēr-, according to Pokorny) = "wild beast”
and words like Greek θήρ thēr and θηρίον thērion = "wildes Tier, Jagdtier"” also aeolic φήρ phēr, homeric Φῆρες Phēres, thessalian φείρ pheir = “animal, wild animal, wilde Tier, Raubtier”;
Lat. ferus, -a, -um “wild” (*ĝhuero-s);
Also Lith. žvėrìs, lett. zvêrs.; Old Prussian Akk. Pl. swīrins; Old Church Slavic zvěrь `wild animal', sloven, zvę̂r, ačech. zvěř m. f., russ. zvěrь; substantiv. adjective lit. žvėrienà f., russ. zvěrína `Wildbret', to lat. carō ferīna ds.
There is also a word πρήν (prēn) = "bull", according to Hesychius, but its origin is not clear.
Kyriakos, indeed, it seems that, given the core vocabulary that we discovered (counting with those that Giacomo did not accept), it seems that there is a dialect continuum of PIE which it does seem older, even older than PIE. And that this dialect continuum included some kind of Satem/Ketum mixture. It seems that Greek did also belong to this frontier, sharing other isoglosses with Iranian. Such that Iranian and Greek are commonly grouped together.
DeleteSo, my proposed it is that Sumerian branched off early, but it was squeezed between IA an Greek.
So, I propose a term which is fundamental both to IA religions and to Chrisitians (which come sfrom old greek), Soma (it was corpse in archaic greek as weel as juice of the aryans), Haoma. Also, su, http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4944.html
Interesting proposal this su 'flesh, body', maybe it can be really related to Greek soma (also Akk. zumru), but not to Skt. soma which comes from a root su- meaning 'to press out, extract juice'. In IE: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1706.html
DeleteIn Greek it gives regularly hy-ein 'to rain'.
I think the meaning in Greek and Sumerian comes from the root "su-", note that in Greek, the etymology is uncertain, but overlaps spiritual meaning with physical meaning. You can check that : http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=somato-&allowed_in_frame=0
Deletehttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%83%E1%BF%B6%CE%BC%CE%B1
The meaning of su in sumerian is at the physical end of the semantic domain. Note also the costume of ancient jews of spilling blood over the altar, called holocaust, which also jesus simbolised in the last soup as the act of the eating of bread, symbolizing his body (called "soma" in the original in greek).
Blood is vital for body, anyway. In Sumerian there is also a word "umun" for body, which seems identical with "umun" = blood.
DeleteΙ was thinking a bit about these words. The first umun could correspond to Greek hymēn ὑμήν , for "membrane/ skin"; we can recall that Sum. "su" means body, flesh, but also skin.
The other "umun" = blood, I compare with Greek αἵμων haimōn = bloody / αἱμο- haimo- , αἷμα haima = "blood".
(-mun looks like an IE ending, "-mon").
@ Daniel, I tend to agree about this "dialect continuum" and the position of this Mesopotamian IE language between Indo-Iranian and Greek.
I'll try to explain a bit the proposal for αἷμα haima and Sum. umun = blood. According to a recent etymology, haima is connected to the verb ἵημι hiēmi ( root *ye-), meaning (among other things) “to send forth, throw, hurl, of stones or javelins, also, to let flow, let burst or spout forth”; in that sense haima (blood) is thought to be “a liquid flowing out of the body (because of an injuring at the battle).This verb ἵημι hiēmi (pr. perfect ἧκα hēka) corresponds to Latin iaceo.
Deletehttp://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*i%3Aentry+group%3D3%3Aentry%3Di%28%2Fhmi
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/iaceo
The IE root is *yē- = to throw, impel. Contracted from *yeh1 .1. Extended zero-grade forms *yak-yo and *yak- … ( from Latin iacere, to throw, lay, and iacēre, to lie down (< "to be thrown") and iaculum, dart 2. Basic form *yē and zero-grade form *yə from Greek hīenai, to send, throw.[Pokorny i̯ē 502.] From here:
https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/indoeurop.html
If this etymology is correct, I think that this comparison between haima / haimon and umun is somehow similar to the one between Sum. ugnim /ummana = army and Latin augmen.
Daniel, look at your message about ku = food, fish an the previous post; I think it was on July, I replied on September.
DeleteI looked at it, but I couldn't get what's in your mind.
DeleteI meant about gu and *ǵews- (Gr. geusis).
DeleteHaimon means also “skilful”; in Sumerian we have also umun = “knowledge”.
Deletehttp://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*a%3Aentry+group%3D51%3Aentry%3Dai%28%2Fmwn
There is an interesting article of Michel Briand about haima and haimon, especially about the hapax homeric “αἵμονα θήρης” haimona thērēs (“haimon” of hunting, “habile à la chasse”).
http://www.persee.fr/doc/metis_1105-2201_1997_num_12_1_1065
“umun” is also the Emesal word for Sum. en = “lord, king”.
I looked at the entry for Haimon, and found this Il. 5.49; expl. by Gramm. as = δαίμων, for δαήμων, skilful, cf. EM251.13.
DeleteThen, I looked at the etymology for demon:
demon (n.) Look up demon at Dictionary.com
c. 1200, from Latin daemon "spirit," from Greek daimon "deity, divine power; lesser god; guiding spirit, tutelary deity" (sometimes including souls of the dead); "one's genius, lot, or fortune;" from PIE *dai-mon- "divider, provider" (of fortunes or destinies), from root *da- "to divide" (see tide (n.)).
Used (with daimonion) in Christian Greek translations and Vulgate for "god of the heathen" and "unclean spirit." Jewish authors earlier had employed the Greek word in this sense, using it to render shedim "lords, idols" in the Septuagint, and Matt. viii:31 has daimones, translated as deofol in Old English, feend or deuil in Middle English. Another Old English word for this was hellcniht, literally "hell-knight."
The original mythological sense is sometimes written daemon for purposes of distinction. The Demon of Socrates was a daimonion, a "divine principle or inward oracle." His accusers, and later the Church Fathers, however, represented this otherwise. The Demon Star (1895) is Algol.
Then, I looked at here, the oldest attested used of daimons
For the Minoan (3000-1100 BC) and Mycenaean (1500-1100 BC), "daimons" were seen as attendants or servants to the deities, possessing spiritual power. Later, the term "daimon" was used by writers such as Homer (8th century BC), Hesiod, and Plato as a synonym for theos, or god. Some scholars, like van der Leeuw, suggest a distinction between the terms: whereas theos was the personification of a god (e.g. Zeus), daimon referred to something indeterminate, invisible, incorporeal, and unknown.[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimonic
It seems Haimon and Daimon are variations of a word, given the similarities. Maybe contact with Iranian branch? In any case, these are servants of god. That's not far from the idea of what a king in those times were.
daēmōn δαήμων = “skillful, man of knowledge” which is may be written also as daimōn δαίμων, is from *δάω daō = “to learn, to teach”, while δαίμων = “god, deity (etc)”, which in antiquity was thought to be the same with δαήμων/δαίμων, is thought to be from δαίω daiō = to divide (as the slavic bog = god is from a root bag- = to distribute). The two verbs seem too close, though, maybe they share ultimately the same origin *da-.
Deletehaimon = skillful, which was compared sometimes with Hebrew hamon = "an artificer, architect, master workman" http://biblehub.com/hebrew/525.htm nowadays is thought to be from the root of haima = blood, but the problem is exactly the identification of this root. On the other hand, one can say that in Hebrew the word for blood is "dam" (in Akkadian is dammu), but perhaps we are pushing things too far…
Also in Mythology Haemonis was a poetical name of the region of Thessaly, which is thought to be the Urheimat for Pelasgians and Greeks. Haemon, the eponym hero of the Thessalian tribe of Haemones, was the son of Pelasgus and the father of Thessalus.
http://latinlexicon.org/definition.php?p1=2024862
http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/haemon-e501700?s.num=21&s.start=20
Btw, what do you mean about the Iranian branch?
I just thought of something random. That both Greek and Iranian tend to make s -> h. Maybe at an earlier stage where Greek-Indic-Iranian were not differentiated we would get it for d->h? Not sure if anyone had ever build these intermediate steps. As for the Semitic root, I think it could be a borrowing from that Greek-Indic-Iranian. If there were such language in the Minoan Civilization, it could happen. Perhaps it could help if there is a deciphering of Linear A. There are 2 proposals related to Iranian. What is interesting it is that a common sign is the water carrier, which represents ~30kg.
DeleteAnother good link:
Delete"While some researchers have applauded Sarianidi for his dedication, others view him as an eccentric, employing brutish and old-fashioned techniques. These days Western archaeologists typically unearth sites with dental instruments and mesh screens, meticulously sifting soil for traces of pollen, seeds, and ceramics. Sarianidi uses bulldozers to expose old foundations, largely ignores botanical finds, and publishes few details on layers, ceramics, and other mainstays of modern archaeology. Ceramics that he has unearthed and which for millennia have remained protected deep in the sand now lie strewn about his sites with visitors stepping over them as they walk around. Local residents and animals also climb all over the fragile earthen structures. His reports are also sensationalistic, conjectural and poorly researched. Sarianidi's conclusions are routinely contradicted by a more sober analysis. Nevertheless, his findings have provided rich fodder for those captivated by the fantasy generated by his claims. It is unfortunate that his lack of credibility by serious scholars may obscure his other accomplishments. A further tragedy that may overshadow his work is that paradoxically he may have done a disservice in unearthing the ruins. The exposed ruins have been left with no protection and are being rapidly eroded.
As a Greek growing up in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, under Stalinist rule, Sarianidi was denied training in law and turned to history instead. Ultimately, it proved too full of groupthink for his taste, so he opted for archaeology. "It was more free because it was more ancient," he says. During the 1950s he drifted, spending seasons between digs unemployed. He refused to join the Communist Party, despite the ways it might have helped his career. Eventually, in 1959, his skill and tenacity earned him a coveted position at the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow, but it was years before he was allowed to direct a dig. In 1996, Sarianidi moved to Greece where he currently lives."
[...]
"It is regrettable that through conjecture alone, the Andronovo complex has been connected racially and culturally to the people of the BMAC complex. This error is compounded with the conjecture that the Andronovo complex is connected to the Aryans, misleading some to further believe that the Aryans originated in the Siberian steppes. Because some parts of the Andronovo complex are part of Russian Siberia, in an additional leap of faith, some people have translated the Andronovo region to mean the Russian steppes, leading some to state that the Aryans originated in the Russian steppes, a name that is usually associated with the western Russian steppes - west of the Caspian sea. One error leads to another. There is no credibility to the assertion that the Aryans originated in the Russian steppes."
http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/merv/gonur.htm
Thank you, interesting judgment on Sarianidi. I have also read something critical about his way of excavating and his theories, but an archaeologist like Grigoriev approves them, especially the origins of BMAC in Syro-Anatolia.
DeleteAbout haimon= daimon, I have checked Chantraine's etymological dictionary, he remarks that it is a hapax in the Ilias, and that the glosses themselves use arbitrarily daemon and daimon to explain it as 'skilful', while probably it comes from haima 'blood'. Liddel-Scott translates as eager: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dai(%2Fmwn
About haima, he compares OHG seim 'virgin honey', there is a root *sai- referring to thick liquids: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1662.html
About dahmon, the root given is this: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P0338.html
And this for daimon: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P0314.html
I suggest to avoid observing apparent similarities, the only solid way to work with etymology is to observe roots. They can be similar but have different meanings, I think we have can find many examples also in our languages.
It's hard to avoid confusions if dictionaries are not done with accuracy, specially one that is about Greek and is supposedly to be accurate. As for my observations about roots, I mean similar sounds and meanings (which is not the case here).
DeleteBut how can skillful be related to blood? And in this case it's not that the etymologies the the roots seem different, it's the whole set that is similar both in sound and pronunciation. This is something that I observe in my language too, in your it must happen too ( I understand some dialects of Italian way easier than some dialects of Portugal). What a person with an odd dialect say because of the whole word, not parts of it, also, in the context they are used.
In any case, the similarities with blood in sumerian and blood/fluid is interesting. As well the similarity of me Minoan use of Daimon and how it is similar to the idea of a king as a representation of god on earth.
A correction: dahmon above is δαήμων (daemon), I wrote so, hastily, because in the dictionary search you must write h for Greek η.
DeleteAbout roots, what was understood in European linguistics especially after the discovery of Sanskrit grammar, is that they are the basis of the formation of words and that you need to find a root to make etymologies. To compare words from their similar form can be simply to compare suffixes which are added to similar roots with completely different meanings, like hai-mon and dai-mon. The meaning of haimon is dubious, Liddell-Scott proposes 'eager' (of hunting, in the only case where it is used), but also bloody. I don't agree with the theory of Briand, that haimon means skilful, from the compounds he cites and the later use it is clear that haimon means 'bloody, having blood'. So, I find reasonable a theory like that of Koller that the hunter in question is 'bloody of hunting or of the prey'. It would be a strong poetical image and probably a formula as Homer often has.
IF both were cognates, how would you derive that? Just a thought experiment.
DeleteCan you explain better?
Delete"A thought experiment or Gedankenexperiment (from German) considers some hypothesis, theory,[1] or principle for the purpose of thinking through its consequences. Given the structure of the experiment, it may or may not be possible to actually perform it, and if it can be performed, there need be no intention of any kind to actually perform the experiment in question.
DeleteThe common goal of a thought experiment is to explore the potential consequences of the principle in question: "A thought experiment is a device with which one performs an intentional, structured process of intellectual deliberation in order to speculate, within a specifiable problem domain, about potential consequents (or antecedents) for a designated antecedent (or consequent)" (Yeates, 2004, p. 150).
Famous examples of thought experiments include Schrödinger's cat, illustrating quantum indeterminacy through the manipulation of a perfectly sealed environment and a tiny bit of radioactive substance, and Maxwell's demon, which attempts to demonstrate the ability of a hypothetical finite being to violate the second law of thermodynamics."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment
The idea is to explain "daimon" and "haimon" as they were known (fact) to be cognates. How would you link them?
DeleteSomething like dakru / asru for "tear" (in Greek and Indic forms), perhaps?
DeleteThe case of Greek dakry and Vedic aśru (http://proto_roots.enacademic.com/312/dak%CC%82ru-) is quite unique, however there is no aspiration. Your question, Daniel, is very curious, because I cannot link two terms as cognates if I have no proof for that. The sounds d and h can correspond in different IE languages if they come from *dh, or even from *g'h, if it loses the aspiration, since in some languages (Albanian, Persian) the sound g' has become d. But in the case of daimon we can recognize an IE root *dai-: http://proto_roots.enacademic.com/316/d%C4%81_%3A_d%C7%9D-_and_d%C4%81i-_%3A_d%C7%9Di-_%3A_d%C4%AB%CC%86-
DeleteI'd like to make clear another principle besides roots: phonetic laws. To make sound etymologies we need to find roots and laws of phonetic change that are valid in a given language. Such laws can be universally studied, but there are different changes in different languages, so to find a law you must systematically compare many terms in related languages, as has been done in IE studies since the 19th century.
Another question, however, is that of loanwords. In that case roots are not relevant, because the word is taken in its entirety, ignoring its structure and often adapting it to the present phonology of a language. In modern times we tend to adopt words as they are in the original language, like computer, manager, and so on, but in the past they were often changed. Even now in German whiskey can be pronounced viski, euro oiro and judo yudo.
So, if Sumerian, which is structurally and mostly non-IE, has taken IE words, we must also consider the way it adapted those words to its phonology.
I am well aware of phonetic laws. I know the longevity of such studies in IE, but we are studying something that are quite are of that pattern. So, the idea is to look for such new laws, in case sumerian and IE branch are related.
DeleteAnd what I am doing is a thought experiment. Look for things outside what is known, not proven, reason about it, and see if it relates to reality. This has worked in many branches of science. So, I am trying it here.
DeleteThe discovery of anti matter was such case. There was no evidence of such case, only the equations that required a missing element, for which there was no evidence. Sometimes, you can put the chariot in front of the bulls.
DeleteSince the previous post has started with Zagros, I think it is appropriate to make a reference to it at the beginning of this new one. I think that a possible relation of Zagros Mountains with the Greeks could be the name of the god Ζαγρεύς Zagreus, “the highest of all gods” according to poet Alkman. Zagreus is a chthonic deity, connected to the god of wine, Dionysos and his cult:
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus
The etymology of Zagreus as “great hunter” (from za-, a particle which intensifies the meaning, and agra = hunting) is a kind of popular etymology according to Chantraine, who mentions also Zagros. Note also that. according to Wikipedia, some of the earliest evidence of wine production has been discovered in the Zagros Mountains.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros_Mountains
Chantraine connects Zagreus with Zagros, but I think it must be connected with agreus 'hunter', not with a prefix dia->za, but with the same root of zoon 'living being, animal', found in ζωγρεω 'take, save alive, take captive'. As the wiki says:
Delete"In Greek a hunter who catches living animals is called zagreus, Karl Kerenyi notes, and the Ionian word zagre signifies a "pit for the capture of live animals"
However it is possible that this figure is connected with the horned hunter god of ancient Iran (http://www.persee.fr/doc/syria_0039-7946_1966_num_43_3_5875), I have found here that it was actually horned: http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html
Also in India we find a horned baby, Rshyashringa/Ekashringa...
I think all of the options are connected if we assume a continuum of dialects and cultures. BTW, These horned deity is VERY similar to that one of SSC seals.
DeleteThere is also the theme of chimeras, though I am not sure of that since the pictures are not quite good.
DeleteI also think that there is a connection with the SSC seals, also with the unicorn of the seals, which apparently was the animal archetype of Rshyashringa 'horn of the nilgai antelope' also called Ekashringa 'unicorn'. Probably also the Sumerian Enkidu is connected with this figure as the wild man living among animals.
DeleteYou insist that the animal in the seals is Nilgai, not a (horse/donkey + bull) chimera. Donkey and bull were sacred animals from ancient times in middle east (jesus entered Jerusalem riding one). They were both the main animals used in asvamedha. It's likely that a donkey was quite faster than today, and could quite be used instead of a horse in ashvamedha , since the African type is smaller and what we have today usually.
DeleteBut, there is someone that supports your idea https://www.academia.edu/7652415/No_Elephants_in_the_Rigveda_
DeleteSorry, I just noticed that is not a Nilgai :P
DeleteMy idea of the nilgai is almost identical to that proposed by Asko Parpola in a long article that I read after elaborating my post on the topic. Bull and donkey cannot explain all the features of the unicorn as the nilgai does, and the tradition of Rshyashringa/Ekashringa is also a support. The main animal of the ashvamedha was the horse...
DeleteAs for prajapati:
Deletehttps://books.google.com.br/books?id=btvVwUvMgLUC&pg=PA217#v=onepage&q&f=false
I think the theme of incest should not be something popular enough, or in any places, for celebration to be in so many seals. In fact, incest is a terrible act and that is evident in both the story and in any nearby cultures. Besides, referring to the picture themselves, the seals lack the large foreskin of a bull, the relatively short legs, the fur from the neck. Those are more likely to be the the decorations, exactly as described for ashvadeva.
These are what I consider prajapatis. These are rare seals:
https://tamilandvedas.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/sacrificeseal.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iPLF-br_-KM/UzXlo9NpWQI/AAAAAAAAP0s/HlRrxH-oVEs/s1600/Indus2.gif
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9e/4b/d2/9e4bd2b8fcd23090f3de288420abffe8.jpg
These are representations of prajupati, with its multiple, very chimeric forms. Some of them contain 9 mixtured animals.
professor Benedeti,
ReplyDeleteHi, i'm Sudeshna from LA, i think this is a high quality attempt, my congratulations.
But i think you are looking for publishing this research in some academic journal?, i think that should be done unless you already did it!.
I think you area also getting some great help from your friends!, you can consider here that there is now another.
But surely there will be some problems in case of agreement in academic area, like your stand on a i u as the original vocalism instead of aeiou and of course your disagreement on AIT , you are making IE languages in India to early IMO, but yes your location of PIE is quite logical.
Cheers.
Hi Sudeshna, by the way I am not professor at present. I am thinking to publish the Sumerian list somewhere, a problem is however that I have not studied academically Sumerian, and that some words come from the work of Whittaker who has not replied to my request of collaboration.
DeleteAbout AIT, I think that there is more openness to different approaches today, although we have to fight a bit to receive attention. The antiquity of IE in India is unavoidable IMO, because there is no relevant trace of a previous civilization in ancient Indian language. The vocabulary is essentially IE, non-IE loans refer mainly to local plants in my experience. If we compare with the heavy presence of Sumerian in Akkadian or of Sumerian, Akkadian, Hurrian and Hattic in Hittite texts, we realize the different situation. To propose the Harappan civilization as pre-Aryan and the complete replacement of its language is unbelievable.
Sorry for the errors in Typing :P,
DeleteWell that is disappointing since Whittaker is a crucial aspect, collaboration with him can be really good.
On AIT i do understand what you mean, but it is important to take caution while making such ancient date, it is quite convincing that Rigveda or Avesta can't be older than the early 2nd millennium bc , so perhaps we can say that though IE Languages were present from before say another 1000 Years but the oldest evidence that we know from Iran or India in form of RV and Avesta came into existence quite after, same can be suggested for the Earliest Greek epics perhaps, but of course if Archaeology and other fields of study agrees with that.
Sudeshna.
I agree that RV is mainly of the 2nd mill. BC, although in my chronology it is rather in the first half, I have written an article that you can find on academia.edu: https://independent.academia.edu/GiacomoBenedetti.
DeleteSome hymns can be older, anyway since we have no older texts in another language from North India we have no proof against a much more ancient presence of Indo-Aryan languages there. The RV itself does not remember a migration from other lands, and archaeologists tend to agree that there is a continuity from the Neolithic to the Iron age.
In case of Greek we do have linear A and B, but Linear A is so far a mystery, what is your opinion?.
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A#Theories_of_decipherment
It seems even Indo-Iranian is proposed :) .
Thank you!, i have taken a look at your research, it looks quite different indeed, i will read it carefully.
''The RV itself does not remember a migration from other lands,''
Yes but how many IE Groups or Major groups have the memory of migrations from some where else? Do Balts have it? Do Greeks have it? or do Germans have it?.
''archaeologists tend to agree that there is a continuity from the Neolithic to the Iron age.''
But surely there were influxes in that long period IMO, some of which probably created cultural changes.
Sudeshna.
I have not definite opinions on Linear A, because I have not studied it, I have seen a book proposing Luwian, but it seems it is not widely accepted, and maybe the theory of a Tyrrhenian language like Lemnian and Etruscan is more probable. It is possible that there were different languages, as Crete was known for its linguistic diversity.
DeleteAbout migrations, we know that Greeks remembered them, see Thucydides:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7142/7142-h/7142-h.htm#link2HCH0001
The ancient inhabitants of Greece were called Pelasgoi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians
Besides IEs, Jews remembered their migration and made of it an epic tale. From a text written in the supposed period of migration like the RV we would expect some allusion to movements from the west. And also in later texts reporting ancient traditions like Mahabharata or Puranas. According to Pargiter, the only allusion to a NW origin is in the Ramayana about the father of Pururavas, Ila, defined as king of Balhi or Balhika (Balkh in Afghanistan). I think this allusion is quite interesting, but it refers to the remote origins of the Aila stock that reigned in North India, already mythical in Rigvedic hymns like the hymn of Pururavas. In Puranas, Ila is connected with Ilavrta, the mythical region of the mount Meru, which reminds the Airyanam Vaejo and mount Hara of the Avesta: http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm#haraberezaiti
The only people that were not romanized or taken over by Christian do have a memory from coming from an otused changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Bronze_Age_migrations_(Ancient_Near_East)
DeleteAnd I do disagree with Witzel regarding his late dating of rig veda. I think the bulk of if II,III,VI,VI and VII represented the time of migrations of east to west within a short space, from inside India, basically, I think rig vedic sankrit represents the language of a tribe coming from the basin of the the ganges, and carrying an unifiyinf force around 2700bc. You can see a transition from broken pattern of cultures becoming unified within less than 200 years. According to the Puranas, the founder of Bharata dynasty comes from Hastinanpur, which was crossed by the Ganges, now dried. As pointed out by Witzel, there are traces of a language which is close to munda, called para munda, within the vocabulary of Rig Veda. Such thing is also seen today, in which that the languages of East Aryan are have elements which are characteristic of Extreme East asia, like the presence of classifiers.
But I think the clearest evidence is the characterization of the Saraswasti and the lost of importance in the Vedic tests as the younger ones are attested. It coincides with its drying. All arguments contrary to that do absurd special pleading.
Giacomo, Yes it seems Greeks knew about their migrations, but again there were others like Balto-Slavs, Germans.Actually the Balto-Slavic area is very close to the suggested home of PIE according to Kurgan model, it also important perhaps that their vocabulary is very pure and does not have any clear substratum? i think Uralic is proposed but its not very strong?. Thank you for the suggestion on Ilavrta, it perhaps falls around SC Asia so not very far from India. Thank you for the suggestion on Linear A, I do have a related question then, where did the Greeks come from ? :). Sudeshna.
DeleteBeing pure can be actually a counter example of being close to a urheimat. It means that it can be far away and where external influences are very alien, to the point where can be weed out. An easy example are Austronesian languages in Madagascar, Easter Island and Hawaii.
DeleteIllavarta are in the mountains, actually the cultivatable lands fall closer to China. I would say that greek comes from somewhere in northen Zagros, probably a long and spread urheimat where the western border would be the panjab. For example, the etymology of Sanskrit: इक्ष्वाकु, ikṣvāku, from Sanskrit ikṣu, meaning "sugarcane" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikshvaku , but it is also close to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%B0%CF%87%CE%B8%CF%8D%CF%82
Something of its mythology: Pisces originates from some composition of the Babylonian constellations Šinunutu4 "the great swallow" in current western Pisces, and Anunitum the Lady of the Heaven, at the place of the northern fish. In the first Millennium BC texts known as the Astronomical Diaries, part of the constellation was also called DU.NU.NU (Rikis-nu.mi, "the fish cord or ribbon").[2]
Pisces is associated with Aphrodite and Eros, who escaped from the monster Typhon by leaping into the sea and transforming themselves into fish.[3] In order not to lose each other, they tied themselves together with rope. The Romans adopted the Greek legend, with Venus and Cupid acting as the counterparts for Aphrodite and Eros. The knot of the rope is marked by Alpha Piscium (α Psc), also called Al-Rischa ("the cord" in Arabic).[4]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisces_(constellation)
There is a theory that pelasgo- or (rather the mythic hero Pelasgos) comes from a IE root *bhelozgho- (from IE *bhel- ‘to bloom’ and *ozgho- = ‘branch’). I think that in Sumerian we have found the first word as "bulug".
Deletehttps://www.academia.edu/3647847/The_Divine_Origin_of_the_Homeric_Pelasgians
I think that Thucydides tells about migrations of several ethnic groups "inside" Greece or around the Aegean at an era of political anarchy and disturbance, and not about a migration of ethnic Greeks “towards” Greece. He’s also implying a Karian (Luwian?) rulership over the Aegean and Greece in general. There are indeed some geographical names that indicate a Luwian influence, like the root Parn- (means house or temple in Luwian) for several mountains: Πάρνης Parnes = the name of the mountain north-west of Athens; Πάρνων Parnon, a mountain near Sparta, and Παρνασσός Parnassos in Central Greece, were Delphoi and the Oracle of Apollo stand - Apollon, the sun-god has probably Anatolian origin, and according Homer he was fighting at the side of the Trojans. Look also here:
Deletehttps://books.google.gr/books?id=kSkjAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA88&lpg=PA88&dq=luwian+name+parna&source=bl&ots=Z64rOi0Pt2&sig=kM9o3Z52CkczSIgQy83KOGbgrOE&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi93fWa66jJAhUJBywKHcmUAC4Q6AEIOzAF#v=onepage&q=luwian%20name%20parna&f=false
On the other hand, maybe a previous prevailence of the Anatolians in Asian Minor had caused other ethnic groups to migrate from this land towards different directions. Sumerians also is said to have come from the north in Mesopotamia.
This is a Luwian glossary: http://tied.verbix.com/project/glossary/luwi.html
DeleteBtw, I have just seen a Luw. word parrai- = “high” [from Common Anatolian *phrkhu- (high)], maybe this is connected somehow with Sum. barag = “dais, throne, king”?
Well, more than Luwian the root *bhargh- for high is found more closely in German Berg 'mountain' or Armenian barjr 'high': http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P0239.html
DeleteI think it is possible that barag is related, especially for dais, being an elevated platform!
About the Luwian substrate in Greece, the theory of Palmer is generally accepted, but not the idea that Luwian was spoken in Crete. I don't know if the same toponyms are found in Crete, I don't exclude it but I have the impression that the Minoan civilization has something typical Aegean that is not identifiable with an Anatolian culture. An interesting toponym in Crete is Gortyna with the typical root grt found also in Semitic qrt- and Hittite gurta for citadels, but the suffix -na typical of Etruscan. Another is Myrina found in Crete and Lemnos (where a language close to Etruscan is attested) and also in the Etruscan family name Murina.
Thucydides in IV.109 says that Tyrrhenian Pelasgians lived in Lemnos and Athens and still were the majority in the Chalcidian peninsula at his time.
About Pelasgians, there is a theory that they are the same as Philistines, an IE people of the sea. But in Greek sources their identity is not so clear, and it is significant that they are often connected with the Tyrrheni (Etruscans) who did not speak an IE languages, although they could have IE Anatolian elements.
As to the origin of Greeks, I still have to form a clear theory, but linguistically they are related to Armenians and also with Indo-Iranians, so their origin must be close to these populations. According to Sergent, Greeks came from Usatovo with influence from Maykop, which was a culture with clear Iranian links as shown by Ivanova.
Does that mean that after Greeks have separated with Armenians and Indo-Iranians, they made all the "tour" around Black Sea and entered Greece from the north?
DeleteAbout Berg etc, the Acropolis of Troy is called also Pergamon or Pergama by Homer and Virgil; we have also the cities of Pergamos/ Perhamon and Perge in Asia Minor.
DeleteThere is also a town Gortys (Gen. Gortynos) in Arcadia.
Another toponym connected with the Pelasgians is Larisa ( a city of Thessaly), which reminds the Sumerian city of Larsa. Larisa is also the name of the Acropolis of Argos.
In Crete we have the sacred mount Ide (Ida); the mountain where Zeus was born; the some name Ide/ Ida is for the mountain near Troy.
Yes, I would add that some of these names are not necessarily IE. It is possible that some affinities of Greek toponyms with Anatolian are due to a common 'Mediterranean' substrate and not to an Anatolian IE presence. Pergamon is clearly IE instead, with a p for IE *bh which is not the normal Greek result.
DeleteAbout the migration of Greeks, if Usatovo is really related we can suppose a slow tour around the Black Sea, which is what is envisaged also by Haak with the Near Eastern 'Armenian' component in Yamnaya that moved to Europe through the steppe.
Hamp, evidently not considering Usatovo, proposes a migration of proto-Greeks through the southern coast of the Black Sea, Gamkrelidze and Ivanov (Armenian hypothesis) through Anatolia.
Beware of the use of Sintasha- Arkaim as any proof of the origin of Indo Aryans. This is now well known at the west, but in the name of nationalism (Russia vs. West), it was promoted as the origin of IE (the other origin was in the balkans). People gave a victory to the Sintasha, but forgot the forceful political interpretations which are used are not known, and used to promote extreme nationalism and new age thinking: http://legacy.earlham.edu/~schwael/Arkaim.pdf
DeleteVery interesting article, thanks a lot, Daniel! It is important to consider how Slavic nationalism influences the theories on the IE homeland and migrations.
DeleteAnother question is what happened to the Armenians; because according to Herodotus, they came to their homeland from the Balkans, following the Phrygians' migration. Is it as if they made a circle around the Black Sea, returning to the same place?
DeleteIn VII.73 Herodotus cites Macedonian statements. Probably we cannot consider these ideas as accurate and from what I have read there is no proof from archaeology, anthropology or genetics of a recent arrival of the Armenians from the Balkans.
DeleteThe fact that the name armannu is attested for the apricot (malus Armeniaca) in Old Babylonian sources, much before the arrival of Phrygians in Anatolia, suggests that it was already a well known country at least at the beginning of the 2nd mill. BC. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Armenia
Tonight I propose to compare Sumerian gigan "twig" with PIE *ghalgh- "branch, rod"
ReplyDeleteArmenian: jatk ''Twig'', Lithuanian zalga "pole, perch," Armenian dzalk "pole" Old Northern French gauger ,Modern French jauger from Old French jaugier,English Gallows etc etc.
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0613.html
Tonight I' m trying to compare this word:
ReplyDeleteSum. lal = "strap (PSD), strap, harness (A. Sahala), noose, lasso (Halloran)", with:
Latin lorus = "leather strap, thong; shoe strap; rawhide whip; dog leash; reins (usu. pl.) "
Other cognates: Gr. εὔληρα eulēra (pl.) = reins, ‘Zügel’; Dorian αὔληρα aulēra, from *ἐ-ϝληρ-ο- e-wlēr-o, *ἀ-ϝληρ-ο- a-wlēr-o (Schwyzer 224) mit Vokalprothese zu lat. lōrum ‘Riemen, Zügel’, arm. lar ‘Strick, Seil, Band’, idg. *u̯lēr-, *u̯lōr-, *u̯lər-, r-Ableitung vom primären Verb für ‘drehen, winden, flechten’ in 2. εἰλέω. Lit. bei WP. 1, 304 und W.-Hofmann s. lōrum.
Nice proposal, the Armenian form is very close, in Latin lorum, neuter, is more common, it's interesting that this dictionary gives vlārom as ground form: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lorum&la=la#lexicon
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHi Guys,
DeleteFinally got time to suggest something.
Tonight i propose to connect Sumerian maš-maš "sorcerer, incantation priest" with PIE *magh- (1) "to be able, have power" (cognates: Greek mekhos, makhos "means, instrument," Old Church Slavonic mogo "to be able," mosti "power, force," Sanskrit mahan "great"), Iranian massa 'large, great'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae.
It is also to be noted that that root is also suggested to be the root of Magic -
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=may
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=magic&allowed_in_frame=0
and of course the famous Magi who came to visit Jesus seems related.
But it "may be, however," that Avestan moghu (which is not the same as Avestan maga-) "and Medean magu were the same word in origin, a common Iranian term for 'member of the tribe' having developed among the Medes the special sense of 'member of the (priestly) tribe', hence a priest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi#In_Iranian_sources
Interestingly there is this also in Indic from Similar Iranian Source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakaldwipiya
MW gives maga m. a magian , a priest of the sun Var. BhavP. ; pl. N. of a country in S3a1kadvipa inhabited chiefly by Bra1hmans Cat.
also see :
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=maga&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0
So we can imagine that the Sumerian mash is derivative from an IE source for people of high/great value i.e. priests, and we of course already have Sum. mah ‘great, magnificent, numerous’
Similar Proposal on Greek Μάγος here,
DeleteOf Old Iranian origin presumably akin to Old Persian/Median 𐎶𐎦𐎢𐏁 (maγu-) and Avestan [script needed] (moġu-). Both attested Old Iranian words are hapaxes, and of indeterminable meaning. Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *meh₂gh- (“to be able to, to help; power, sorcerer”). Probably unrelated to Av. maga- (cognate with Skt. magha-, "gift"). Attestation in Greek predates attestation in Old Iranian.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%AC%CE%B3%CE%BF%CF%82
However, there is also Akkadian ašīpu "sorcerer, magician; incantation priest"; mašmaš(š)u "incantation priest"..
DeleteAnd in Sumerian also emeš/emezi(|SAL+LAGAR|) "priest" both words occur only once.
One more nice paper: "Twenty-first century clouds over Indo-European homelands"
ReplyDeleteThis paper presents the respondent’s general comments to some of the papers of the seminar
on the “Indo-European Homeland and Migrations: Linguistics, Archeology and DNA”
(Moscow, 12 September, 2012). It briefly examines three homeland models (Neolithic Anatolia,
Near Eastern and Pontic-Caspian) in terms of their ability to address the issues of IndoEuropean
phylogeny (the separation of Anatolian from the rest of the Indo-European languages)
and the dispersal of agricultural terms across the Indo-European world.
http://jolr.ru/files/(112)jlr2013-9(145-154).pdf
It's a very critical paper and puts weight on Renfrew's model A, where SSC is Indo European.
Another possible comparison:
ReplyDeleteSum. lal = “to be sweet, to be good”, also “syroup, honey” (Akk. dišpu "honey, syrup"; matqu "sweet"; ţābu "good; sweet").
and Greek λαρός laros = “pleasent to the taste, daintly, sweet”. (in Greek, though, honey is μέλι meli). It is believed that λαρός laros is from a verb apo-lauō απο-λαύω = “to taste, geniessen”.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dlaro%2Fs2
I agree about the significance of the roots of course, but in case of haima the root is dubious, so there are many views about it, about its origin from *ye, *se (or a combination of both), or *sai-, while its kinship with old German seim = honey (or Indic soma) is just an opinion among others (not very much justified, according to the lexicon I have). Haima for blood, though an ancient and very well attested word, had in Greek replaced the "normal" IE word ἔαρ ear (from *esar) for “blood” and the same happened to other languages (latin sanguis for aser, Indic rudhira for asrk etc). Also in Sumerian this word umun appears about 2000, as I can see, so it is not so old (since we are speaking about the Sumerians).
ReplyDeleteHaimon is supposed to mean "eager" (in Greek "hiemenos") according to the view of its origin from "hiemai" =" to rash, to hurry, to seek, to want" a verb which is maybe influenced by hiēmi I was talking before. Now, the Homeric hapax is from Iliad E 49, the narrative is about the killing of the Trojan Skamandrios by the Spartan king Menelaos, though he (Skamandrios) was a “haimon theres” (haimon of hunting, “master of hunting”) taught in hunting by Artemis herself (Artemis, the goddess of hunting). So, perhaps there is a notion of divine gift or knowledge / power / force here. The meaning of skillfull for haimon probably comes from that and it is theview of the Ancients, Hesychius mentions it, too.
The objection to the etymology of haima with seim is mainly because of the vowel, but if we accept that the root is *sai- or *saim- there is no problem. The Norwegian seima ‘Schleimschicht, zähe Flüssigkeit’ (http://www.dwds.de/?qu=seimig) is especially close, the main concept seems to be a thick fluid, as blood is.
DeleteAbout haimon, the use in tragedy and words like anaimon 'blodless', sunaimon 'of common blood, kindred', show the meaning of the word. I am more convinced by Koller's interpretation of the Homeric passage as I have said. hiemenos is the participle of hiemai 'to desire', where -menos and -mai are suffixes, and the IE root is maybe *wei/wi-: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P2112.html
About Sum. umun, I find interesting that it is also translated in Akk. with mummu, possibly 'life-giving force', maybe that is the fundamental concept giving then the meaning 'blood'. I don't see a reason to suppose an IE loanword in this case, the idea of an IE suffix -mun can be good, but also misleading, there are other words ending with -mun in Sumerian that do not suggest an IE origin, like numun 'insect; seed'.
I think that the meaning “life force” in haima is strong (L. Bernal in “Black Athena” has even suggested a possible origin from the Hebrew hayyim = life). The use of a word haimon as just “bloody” seems to be of later use; haimon in this Homeric passage cannot be translated this way, it makes no sense in the context, in my opinion. Here is an English translation of it:
Deletehttp://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0134%3Abook%3D5%3Acard%3D43
About the ending –mun in Sumerian, I think that nothing in Sumerian grammar suggests its use as a kind of productive ending like in IE, as far as I know. I’ve seen at the previous post that Whittaker in his publication of 2012 (page 586) gives such etymologies as for Sum. hamun = “fitting together” from a IE har-mun (“joining together, harmonious” - like “harmony” αρμονία) and for Sum. dilmun = “weighty, important” from IE tel-mon “weighty” – for this there is also a homeric name from this root *tel, the hero Telamōn Τελαμών “the bearer, the supporter”; so it was natural to think something similar about umun, since Haimon Αίμων is also a personal name, as I have said, existing in Homer too (Δ 296).
About numun = “seed” (in Halloran exists also as nuĝun, niĝun, but not in PSD), something I can think about the “nu-” part (putting aside a possible –mun ending) is the Gr. word νειός neios (from *newios) = “terre profonde” and then “bonne pour la culture” (as Chantraine puts it), a kin to ni = “down” in Skt. and of nieder in German etc (all from *en = “into, below”).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dneio%2Fs1
So “numun” could mean, in a hypothetical IE language, “a thing deep in the earth (after sowing)”, and so a “seed”.
About haimon, I think that the later meaning confirms the older, and to me 'bloody' in the context of hunting is acceptable. On the other hand, the proper name Haimon suggests another meaning, since to be named 'bloody' seems really too strange, maybe it is connected with a metaphorical meaning of haima 'blood' as life force. Anyway, we cannot build an etymology on the interpretation of such a controversial word, and the u- of umun cannot be compared with hai- < *sai-.
Deletehamun for harmonia is very suggestive but very unlikely, for some reasons: the lack of r, the initial h- that is not corresponding to the Greek h- (which comes from s-, sometimes j-) and the fact that it is -monia and not -mon, because -mon is used for adjectives.
So, dilmun is more promising because it is an adjective, however τελᾰμών (telamon) in Greek means something like 'bearer' (especially "a broad strap or band for bearing or supporting anything"), not weighty.
Greek neios is reconstructed as *neiwos, comparing with Serbo-Croatian njiva 'cultivated field'. According to Pokorny, it comes from nei/ni- 'low'. So, to find a connection with nu- of numun 'seed' is not evident. By the way, the concept of seed does not need agriculture, it should be well known also to foragers, so it must not be a loanword.
About the pronounciation of Sum. "u", I think we can assume other possible phonetic values of it than just a simple "u" ; there are about 30 monosyllabic words "u" in EPSD, which could not be pronounced just as "u".
DeleteFor example at the following paper Sumerian "u" is compared with Uralic "ai-" (ugu / aiko).
Deletehttp://users.cwnet.com/millenia/Sumerian-Parpola.htm
There is also another umun = “pit, pond, puddle” (in Akkadian habbu, hammu). A first remark is that the form of the word in Akkadian (ham-) looks like the haim- in haima and haimon, compared with that other umun. A second remark is that the meaning of this one umun is something like “a pit of stagnant water”.
ReplyDeleteI think that its form resembles to the Greek ἄμνιον or ἀμνίον amnion = “vase or pot for gathering blood (in Homer) or other liquid” (there are also some words ἀμίς /ἁμίς amis / hamis or ἄμη / ἅμη amē / hamē for “chamber pot”) ; also ἀμνίον “amnion” = “membrane foetum involvens” (the membrane that involvs the foetus and the amniotic fluid inside the womb), maybe kin of Indic ámatra-n = pot, and Lithuanian semiu = “to draw up”.
Although there is an ambiguity (again) about its origin, this amnion (not to be confused with ἀμνίον = “little lamb”, from ἀμνός = lamb), comes most probably from a possible *amon ἄμων < ἀμέω ameo =” to gather” < from ἅμα hama = “together” (the dropping of h- can be explained, according to the lexicon); ἅμα hama comes from the IE root *sem, *sam > ham (“one, as one, together”). So, I think that there is a possible IE parallel here.
I think that its form resembles to the Greek ἄμνιον or ἀμνίον amnion = “vase or pot for gathering blood (in Homer) or other liquid” (there are also some words ἀμίς /ἁμίς amis / hamis or ἄμη / ἅμη amē / hamē for “chamber pot”).
DeleteVery Interesting :).
I found this an online discussing list [Nostratic L]. He published before with Bomhard (some of his IE reflexes are cited in the Pokorny site we usually cite). It's interesting because it has an impact of some PIE/Sumerian roots we discused here :
ReplyDelete"More on voicing as a previously non-phonemic feature, by Arnaud Fournet:
"'ve collected a number of pairs with d / nt alternations:
*ped- "foot" = *pent- "path"
*med- "reason" = *ment- "mind"
*sed- "go" = sent- "tread"
*Hred- "gnaw" = *Hrent- "cut"
*ed- "eat" = *enter "intestine"
*ked- "thorny tree" = *kent- "pierce"
*ag- "crime" = *H2enk- "death"
*wed- "water" = *unt- "flow, wave"
These pairs suggest that *t changed to *d, when intervocal, but *nt did
not change.
A."
I sent this message: Arnaud, maybe the pair "nt" is a kind of gerund, nt. Notice the right pairs, in most cases, indicates something that "do" the left one "action" with a long duration.
I was looking for some clues in Hittite and I found further mythological ties between Sumer and Indian mythologies:
ReplyDelete"Alalu was a primeval deity of the Hurrian mythology. After nine years of reign, Alalu was defeated by his son Anu. Anuʻs son Kumarbi also defeated his father, and his son Teshub defeated him, too."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alalu
"In Sumerian, the designation "An" was used interchangeably with "the heavens" so that in some cases it is doubtful whether, under the term, the god An or the heavens is being denoted. The Akkadians inherited An as the god of heavens from the Sumerian as Anu-, and in Akkadian cuneiform, the DINGIR character may refer either to Anum or to the Akkadian word for god, ilu-, and consequently had two phonetic values an and il. Hittite cuneiform as adapted from the Old Assyrian kept the an value but abandoned il.[citation needed]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu
So, we have here Anu as a descendant of Alalu. So, I thought of the relationship of Illa and Anu's descendants. Between the Ailavas, the Anavas were defeated and pushed west (for example, towards sumer).
According to the first wiki page "Alalu fled to the underworld.". This corresponds the domonization of the non Ailas
I meant non-Anavas Ailas
ReplyDeleteLets compare Sumerian bara [~COLOR] wr. bara6 "a color term" With Sanskrit Varna , coming from the PIE *var ''to cover''.
ReplyDeleteTonight i propose to relate Sumerian kadu [COVER] (11x: Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian) wr. ka-du3 "cover", with this one of TOB.
ReplyDeleteProto-IE: *kē̆d- (kh-)
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: to cover, dress
Old Indian: chadati, caus. chādáyati `to cover, clothe, veil; hide, conceal', chattra- n. `parasol, umbrella', chadís- n. `cover, roof'
Germanic: *xēt-iz n., *xēt-a- m., *xēt-ia- n.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=2485&root=config
We already have Sumerian zurzar (zur-za-ar) 'sound', zarah 'wailing, lamentation' compared with PIE *swar/sur, can we also add Sumerian šir "a song; to sing" ?.
ReplyDeleteWe can think that it comes from *swir-. In Croatian, like Old Slavonic, svirati means 'to play an instrument'. In Russian svirel' is a sort of flute. It seems the root is more used for instruments than human voice, but maybe the interpretation of the Sumerian is not accurate, because the Akkadia equivalent zamāru means also to play an instrument, and zammāru is singer but also musician. So, šir as song may also be a melody played with a flute.
Deleteshir means also song in Hebrew; it must be a semitic word.
Deletehttp://biblehub.com/hebrew/7891.htm
And from Greek mythology we have these ladies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren_%28mythology%29
Good ideas! I have seen, about Siren, in an old Italian etymological dictionary were mentioned both Hebrew shir, sir 'sing', and the IE root svar-. We have seen how selas probably is from *swelas, so seirēn can be from something like *sweirān (maybe from *swer-iān?), although I don't exclude a Semitic word. The root sir- is Semitic, and even Afro-Asiatic:
Deletehttp://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fsemham%2fafaset&text_number=+888&root=config
However, I wonder if there is not a common root swar/swir- that in Afro-Asiatic lost the labial sound. Also ṣarāhu- 'lament, sing lamentation' has an Akkadic root but perhaps it can be related to *swar-. Or maybe swar- is an extension of a root *sur-, found in Latin susurrus and in Omotic sur- 'sing', German surren, Danish surre 'to sing softly', probably Greek syrinx, and also Omotic sur 'sing'.
Something relevant to the proposal for Sum. "bad" = land.
ReplyDeleteSum. dubad = "a type of fallow land" (akk. apītu) and Gr. δάπεδον dapedon = Fußboden, Erdboden, but mostly "Hausboden", “ground fitting for building a house”; most probably from δόμος domos = house (or δέμω = to build) and πέδον pedon = soil, ground, land.
Possible cognates: old west norwegian topt and old Swedish, tomt from proto-germanic ‘*tum-feti-.
I remember also that there is a Sumerian "du" meaning "platform".
DeleteToday I give this comparison of a Sumerian word with Sanskrit:
ReplyDeleteSum. zuh = “to steal”
with. Skt. stayu = “robber, thief”
(assuming that a Sum. z can stand for a “st”)
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=stAyu&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=
Possibly from a IE root (s)teh(y), *(s)theh2-ye-o, *(s)theh2-ye-o; some cognates I found from this Tocharian dictionary:
https://books.google.gr/books?id=EWziAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=stayu+thief+sanskrit&source=bl&ots=bzqLLbfYP4&sig=UFk6LRKJ9-A7hzkyiRysQBykc6s&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfgKnWjrrJAhUEUBQKHXKCAuEQ6AEIXTAJ#v=onepage&q=stayu%20thief%20sanskrit&f=false
Sometimes they compare with these words the Greek τηύσιος teysios = “vain” etc
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*t%3Aentry+group%3D12%3Aentry%3Dthu%2Fsios
Hi Guys,
ReplyDeleteI start the last month of the year, by suggesting the similarity between Sumerian gumgam [SOUND] wr. gum2-ga-am3 "a sound (onomatopoeic)"/ gum2-ga-am3=animal noise,with Sanskrit guGguma गुङ्गुम ''humming'', there is also Sanskrit gunjana ''buzzing'' .
Pokorny gives a root kem- 'to hum, buzz, croon'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0900.html
In Indic there's also :
ganagana 4013 *ganagana ʻ murmur ʼ. 2. *gunaguna -- .
1. N. gangan ʻ murmur ʼ, ganganāunu ʻ to grumble ʼ; Or. gaṇagaṇa ʻ murmur ʼ, G. gaṇgaṇ n., gaṇgaṇvũ vb., M. gaṇgaṇṇẽ.
2. H. gungun f., gungunānā vb.
*gandu -- ʻ ball ʼ see gēnduka -- .
GANDH ʻ hurt ʼ: gandháyatē.
Addenda: *ganagana -- . 2. *gunaguna -- : S.kcch. gūṇgūṇ keṇī ʻ to hum, whisper ʼ, Ko. guṇguṇtā ʻ murmurs ʼ.
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:368.soas
and finally TOB :
Proto-IE: * g'hwen-
Meaning: to ring, to sound
Tokharian: A kaṃ, B kene (PT *kene) 'melody, tune' (Adams 193)
Armenian: ʒain (i-St.) `Voice '
Slavic: *zvьnḗti, *zvьnjǭ; *zvonъ, *zvono
Albanian: Ze `voice ', GEG ZA
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1720&root=config
The Suggested Proto -Tokharian is similar with Sumerian kunkan [SOUND] wr. kun-ka3-an "a sound (onomatopoeic)".
My second proposal is to compare Sumerian bana /pana "bow; a geometric figure" with Sanskrit Dhanu ''bow'' .
ReplyDeleteReminds me vaguely of Gr, πηχυς pekhus or παχυς pakhus, meaning "forearm" but also "the centrepiece, which joined the two horns of an ancient bow" etc.
Deletehttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CF%80%E1%BF%86%CF%87%CF%85%CF%82
My third proposal of the day is to compare Sumerian bul '' to shake'' with PIE bal-, balbal- 'to dance, shake, whirl' { From Pokorny }.
ReplyDeleteBut perhaps, we can compare this also :
Proto-IE: *del-, *dul- (?)
Nostratic etymology: Nostratic etymology
Meaning: to shake, to hesitate
Old Indian: dulā́ f. `the shaking one', dolayati `to swing, throw up, shake to and fro', dola-, dolita- `swinging, swung, tossed'
Baltic: *del̃-s- vb. tr.
Germanic: *til-t=, *tul-t=, *tal-t=
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=1904&root=config
I would say to compare this bul with Latin pulsus and Greek πάλλω pallō = to shake, to tremble.
Deletehttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pulse
Possible, this is a list of cognates:
Deletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1472.html
But also the root cited by Nirjhar from Pokorny is not bad:
http://proto_roots.enacademic.com/154/bal-%2C_balbal-
Maybe there are two variants of the same root, bal/pal-
My fourth is not sure because epsd is not sure, but still :
ReplyDeleteSumerian dar "to drip?" with PIE *dhrau- "an act of dropping"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=droop&allowed_in_frame=0
Another major issue is i can't find the other cognates, can anyone try also?.
uš [BLOOD] (50x: Old Babylonian) wr. uš2 "blood, gore" Akk. dāmu
ReplyDeletehttp://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e6291.html
Pokorny Etymon: ē̆s-r̥(gu̯), genitive es-n-és 'blood'
Family/Language Reflex(es) PoS/Gram. Gloss Source(s)
Italic
Old Latin: as(s)er n blood IEW
Baltic
Latvian: asins n blood IEW
Hellenic
Greek: ἔαρ n blood IEW
Anatolian
Hittite: esḫar, esḫanas n blood IEW
Armenian
Armenian: ariwn n blood LRC
Indic
Sanskrit: ásr̥k/ásr̥t, asnáḥ n blood IEW
Tocharian
Tocharian A: ysār
There is something missing. I wanted to point out the variation usham (30%)
DeleteIf I remember well, Arm. ariwn has been compared with Sum. urin = blood by Nirjhar. If both uš and urin come from the same root, that means they're loanwords from 2 different IE languages (or dialects perhaps),
DeleteMy fifth proposal is to compare Sumerian Zu ''tooth'' with PIE root *gyau- "to chew" (cognates: Old Church Slavonic živo "to chew," Lithuanian žiaunos "jaws," Persian javidan "to chew".
ReplyDeleteMy Sixth proposal of the day is to compare Sumerian lam "cutting" with PIE *lau- "to loosen, divide, cut apart, untie, separate" (cognates: Sanskrit lunati "cuts, cuts off," lavitram "sickle;" Greek lyein "to loosen, untie, slacken," lysus "a loosening;" Latin luere "to loose, release, atone for, expiate").
ReplyDeleteBut why a and not u and why the final m? See also this: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1163.html
DeleteIn Latin, lamina is 'blade' (Italian lama), of uncertain origin...
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=lamina&la=la#lexicon
Also, I'd compare http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1194.html leug with sumeran lam, where ug is converted to m, analogy of a non palatazied ng, which gives m.
DeleteLet me add, there are no CVVC, thus the ug would be rendered as ng, non palate, m.
DeleteYes, this means the word can't be IE.
DeleteThe root leug (or rather laug) is normal IE because eu or au is a diphthong, it counts as one vowel. The basic form is lug- which is attested, but Pokorny normally gave the enlarged form eu. In Sanskrit roots with u have a (guṇa) form with o (<*au) and a (vṛddhi) form with au (<*āu). For instance the verb su- 'to press out, extract', noun so-ma (exctracted juice), the adjective sauma (relating or belonging to soma).
DeleteThe a cannot be separated from u, this is an important principle to remember.
Today i start with Comparing Sumerian peš ''(to be) thick,to gather,(to be) wide' etc with PIE *bhangh- "thick, fat" (cognates: Sanskrit bahu- "much, numerous" Avestan bazah- "height, depth," Hittite pankush "large," Old Norse bingr "heap," Old High German bungo "a bulb," Lithuanian biess "thick" French pachyderme,Greek pakhydermos "thick-skinned," etc etc.
ReplyDeleteMy second comparison of the day is Sumerian had "(to be) bright; to shine; (to be) pure; (to be) clear" with Proto-Indo-European *gʷhai- 'light, bright'
ReplyDelete: Old Greek make phaió-, phái̯dimo- `shiny, handsome ', phai̯dró-` bright, vivid, cheerful, merry, merry', phai̯dǖnō `bright, clean, wash; cheer, refresh '
Baltic: *geĩd-r-ā̂, *geîd-r-ā̂, *gaid-r-ā̂ f., *geĩd-r-a-, *gaĩd-r-u- adj., *gaĩd-s-a- c., *gid-r-a- adj.
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=%2fdata%2fie%2fpiet&text_number=+400&root=config
Pokorny : *gu̯hēi- : gu̯həi-, gu̯həi-d- : gu̯hīd- 'bright, shining'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0745.html
Yes, its absent apparently from Asian Branches, but the structure looks quite IE!.
Now I Re-propose to connect Sumerian šeĝ "to (fall as) dew; to rain; rain" with PIE *sniegwh- "snow; to snow" Tokharian śiñcatstse 'snowy' Sanskrit Sneha ''moisture,oil,fat,love'' etc, Prakrit siṇeha ''snow'' Lithuanian sniegas etc etc.
ReplyDeleteTo the Tokharian and Prakrit forms are close to the Sumerian?.
There is also Akkadian ; zanānu "to rain".
There is also the form shegum
Deletehttp://psd.museum.upenn.edu/cgi-bin/distprof?cfgw=%C5%A1eg[frost]&res=abk&eid=e5254
We must distinguish šeg 'frost, snow' and šeĝ 'rain'. The first is similar to Akk. šalgu "snow; sleet",
Deletethe second has some similarity with Akk. zanānu, also because of the nasal, but the initial sibilant is quite different. There is also Akk. šanū 'to apply water to, wash over, flood'.
Prakrit siṇeha is interesting, there is also:" sníh 13798 sníh f. ʻ wetness, moisture ʼ TS. (snḗhiti -- , snīˊhiti -- f. pl. ʻ waters ʼ RV., snĭ̄hiti -- f. ʻ moisture ʼ TĀr., snīhán -- m. or snīhāˊ -- f. ʻ mucus of nose ʼ ŚBr.), ʻ *snow ʼ [√snih]
Pk. siṇhā -- f. ʻ snow, dew, mist, drop of water falling from sky ʼ (metath. of *snihā -- )"
If we accept a similar metathesis for Sum. šeĝ (*sengh-<snegh) it is a possible loan.
The transformation is SN -> SVN. Methatesis is not possible since one n is dental, the other is palatal nasal, like ng, of sing, it is only one phoneme, not a cluster.
DeleteIf we accept a similar metathesis for Sum. šeĝ (*sengh-snegh) it is a possible loan.
DeleteExactly, that was my idea.
On wikipedia, it gives *lewǵ- to break Alb. lungë, Arm. լոյծ (loyc), Av. fra-uruxti, Eng. tōlūcan/, Gm. Lücke; Luke, Gk. λυγρός (lugrós)/, Ir. lucht/, Lat. lūgeō, Ltv. laûzt, Lith. láužti, Skr. रुजति (rujati), Welsh llwyth
DeleteI guess the last one, Daniel, is about leug above? About the metathesis, it is evident in siṇhā from snih-. The nasal changed the point of articulation because of the next sound: before the vowel was dental, but when it was moved before the velar -gh- became velar ṅ (not palatal, which is ñ). This is a common phenomenon in the sandhi of Sankrit and naturally happens also in other languages although we write always n for both dental and velar nasals.
DeleteSo, *snegh- could become seṅgh- and then šeĝ. All this naturally is valid if we admit that the initial š comes from a frequent palatalization or post-alveolarization of the IE sibilant in Sumerian, which is not explained by phonetic laws so far but I accept it hypothetically since it appears in some good parallels.
The signs on IPA are similar, sorry! But then, you are reconstructing a somewhat older Sumerian!
DeleteBy the way, in Portuguese the passage from s to sh is very common, and is found also in some English words like push and cash:
Deletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolar_fricative#Voiceless_alveolar_sibilant
I wonder also if the IE sibilant used in Mesopotamia was not similar to a post-alveolar like the modern Greek sibilant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek_phonology
I remember that someone proposed that the IE sibilant was close to sh, because this is the tendency when a language has only one kind of sibilant.
Another possibility is that originally PIE had different sibilants that merged into one before the separation between satem and centum, but Sumerian reflected the original situation with the distinction of š and s.
compare lithuanian with http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0735.html
ReplyDeletebeda (41%) of the forms
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e709.html
Yes, It looks comparable IMO :). But need more cognates.
DeletePerhaps this.
Deletegudya 4198 *gudya ʻ entrails ʼ. [gudá -- ]
S. guju m., °jī f. ʻ entrails, fowl's crop, gizzard ʼ; L. gujī f. ʻ fowl's crop, matter from a boil ʼ; N. kāne guji ʻ ear -- wax ʼ; -- Tir. guiz ʻ human excrement ʼ semant. cf. karṇagūtha -- ʻ ear -- wax ʼ (AO xii 180 cf. guhya -- ?).
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:531.soas
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=guda&script=&direction=SE&link=yes
Also :
Deletegūtha 4225 gūtha m.n. ʻ excrement ʼ lex. 2. *gūttha -- . [Cf. karṇagūtha -- m. ʻ ear -- wax ʼ Suśr.]
1. Pa. gūtha -- ʻ dung ʼ (cf. akkhi -- gūthaka -- , kaṇṇa -- g°), Pk. gūha -- n., Gy. eur. khul, wel. kxul, germ. kful (kx and kf express. for kh?), Ḍ. gū; Ash. Wg. gū ʻ human excrement ʼ, Kt. gü, Dm. gū, Paš. gūi (or ← Pers. IIFL iii 3, 66), Shum. gūi, Woṭ. Gaw. gū; Kho. (Lor.) čumur -- gūr ʻ iron slag or dross or scum ʼ, k*lr -- gūlu ʻ ear -- wax ʼ (with dissim. of second r?); Phal. gū ʻ excrement ʼ, K. gŏh m., S. gū̃hu m., L. gũh, ghū̃ m., awāṇ. gùtildemacr;, P. gū̃h m., N. guhu, gū, A. B. gū; Or. guha, ghua, gu, gaa (in speaking to children) ʻ excrement ʼ, gaï ʻ ear -- wax, infantile diarrhoea ʼ; Bhoj. gū˘h ʻ excrement ʼ, H. gūh, gū f.; G. gū n. ʻ excrement, dirt ʼ; M. gū m. ʻ excrement, rust ʼ; Ko. Si. gū ʻ excrement ʼ.
2. Bshk. gūt ʻ excrement ʼ.
*gavāṁgūtha -- , *gōgūtha -- .
Addenda: gūtha -- : S.kcch. WPah.kṭg. J. gū ʻ human excrement ʼ, Md. gui ʻ dung ʼ.
http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:555.soas
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=gUtha&direction=SE&script=HK&link=yes&beginning=0
reminds of this:
Deletehttp://biblehub.com/greek/946.htm
I don't think though that bdelygma and bdeo are IE.
I think that the Greek equivalent for Lithuanian geda is khezo ( < khedy-o) , in Sanskrit hadati)
Deletehttp://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*x%3Aentry+group%3D13%3Aentry%3Dxe%2Fzw
In Sumerian there is a word "gudu" = buttocks. On Hesychius I found a word "khodanon" χόδανον for buttoks.
I propose Pokorny Etymon: eg̑-, eg̑(h)om, eg̑ō 'ego, I (pronoun)', I,
ReplyDeletefrom a methatesis of ^ga-e http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2030.html
Notice the tendence of o to become a in may reflexes.
Both bellow are stressed
mé (1st person singular my- PIE) - ^gu - Sumerian
nsmé(1st person plural ours - PIE) - me
IE and Sumerian may share a common ancestry here, the nasalised ĝ in ĝa-e explains the me-e ( < ĝe-e) forms (like diĝir = dimmer for "god"); in Latin we have ego in Nominative and me, mihi etc in the other cases. Ιn Greek, the word μου mou for 1st pers. singular "my", corresponds to ĝu also because it is agglutinated to the noun without changing.
DeleteThere is also Sum. lug = 1. to twist, 2 (to be) crushed, perhaps also for *lewg = to break
ReplyDeleteIn Greek there is also λυγίζω lygizo = to twist, to bend:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3Dlugi%2Fzw
Yeah, That looks comparable.
DeleteI start with Comparing Akkadian mithāru "corresponding (to one another)" with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra#Etymology
Delete*mitra-, generally reconstructed to have meant "covenant, treaty, agreement, promise." This meaning is preserved in Avestan miθra "covenant." In Sanskrit and modern Indo-Aryan languages, mitra means "friend," one of the aspects of bonding and alliance.
When I have seen mithāru I thought not to mitra but to mithuna, which in Skt. means 'pair', also 'the other part , complement or companion of anything'. mithas means 'together, mutually, reciprocally', mith- is 'to unite , pair , couple , meet (as friend or antagonist)'.
DeleteThe similarity of form and meaning is really impressive, while mitra as said also in wiki is m(e)i- + suffix -tra of instrument. It is something binding, like a treaty, but maybe also as a bound of friendship, like bandhu! See http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/R/P1247.html
Fascinating Stuff!, Thank you :) .
DeleteSomething I’ve just remembered for Greek μίτος mitos = (warp) thread; Hesychius gives as its synonym the word γόνος gonos (looks like the Sum. gu = cord, thread” and gunu = “flax” compared to Skt. guṇa 'thread, on the list).
Deleteinteresting! Hesychius is a real treasure trove... gonos means also offspring and seed, but this meaning seems unrelated (mitos means seed only in Orphic language: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=mitos&la=greek#lexicon).
DeleteFlax has also seeds, but there is no specific use of gonos for flax-seeds. However, I wonder if we can find other instances where a Greek o corresponds to a Sanskrit u, it looks unusual, it should be a contraction from *gaun-. I have found now in Pokorny also Av. gaona 'hair (esp. of animals)': http://proto_roots.enacademic.com/561/g%C4%93u-%2C_g%C7%9Du-%2C_g%C5%AB-_%28%2Asg%C4%93u-%29
Avestan ao comes from *au, it corresponds to Sanskrit o < *au like haoma/soma.
Perhaps Av. gaona is connected to latin gunna = "skirt"; which is a loanword into Modern Greek as γούνα gouna = "fur" (in Mod. Greek ου stands for u).
DeleteYes, in Latin there was a word gaunacum for a kind of cloak with fur typical of Persia... so possibly the word was directly of Persian origin.
DeleteIt is considered the origin of the word gunna, Italian gonna. In an Italian book I have found this gaunacum as the name of the skirt used by Baodicea, queen of the Britons.
See also http://etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=gown&searchmode=none
The word gunu= flax is formed by cord,thread + nu [GENITALIA] (1x: Old Babylonian) wr. nu "male genitalia; sperm; offspring" Akk. lipištu
Deletehttp://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e4417.html
So, there seems to be a direct link with gonos as means of offspring and seed and flax.
In a way, there is a link between o and a, though indirect:
Gonos and janati, from:
Pokorny Etymon: 1. g̑en-, g̑enə-, g̑nē-, g̑nō- 'to bear, produce, generate'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0566.html
The break into different sets of vowels happened at least along the ketum/satem split, so, as proposed elsewhere, the cultural interchange could had happened very early.
Delete"The earliest evidence of humans using wild flax as a textile comes from the present day Republic of Georgia, where spun, dyed, and knotted wild flax fibers were found in Dzudzuana Cave and dated to the Upper Paleolithic, 30,000 years ago.[5][6][7] Flax was first domesticated in the Fertile Crescent region.[8] There is evidence of a domesticated oil-seed flax with increased seed size by 9,000 years ago from Tell Ramad in Syria.[8] Use of the crop steadily spread, reaching places as far as Switzerland and Germany by 5,000 years ago (3,000 BCE).[9] In China and India domesticated flax was cultivated by at least 5,000 years ago (3,000 BCE).[10]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flax
It seems that in the mind of the ancient people weaving was connected with sowing: the shuttle corresponds to plough, warps to furrows and thread to seed.
DeleteGr. γόνος gonos = "seed", has an equivalent γουνος gounos (with a diphtong ou), so I guess a *gaun root is possible also for Sanskrit; I m' not sure though if guṇa = thread etc is connected to gonos = seed, since in Skt the root for begetting, seed etc is jan-.
Of course γόνος gonos as 'offspring, procreation, seed' comes from the Greek root gen-, IE *g'an-. In Greek apophony, it is called strong degree with o instead of e. My hypothesis is that it comes originally from long ā as in perfect γέγονα (gegona)=jajāna. In Skt. jāna means 'birth, origin, birthplace'. The form gounos is strange, I don't know how can have developed, but clearly it shows a long vowel.
DeleteInstead, gonos as synonymous of mitos 'thread' must come from another root, which seems equivalent of Skt. guṇa-, only the first vowel is a problem as I remarked. But if the ideas of seed and thread were identified, we can think that gonos is the same word as above, but do you have some instances of this conception?
Daniel, thank you for pointing out nu as 'sperm, offspring', it is really the second word in gu-nu, the first is cord, thread and also flax stalks. So, it can be sperm/offspring=seed of flax. Moreover, it explains numun as 'seed', although there the symbol nu is not used.
DeleteThe history of flax is interesting, because it starts from the Near East and if it really arrived in Europe only around 3000 BC it could be brought by IEs. The Greek and Latin names, linon and linum, are to be derived from the root li- of 'oil', that we find also in Sumerian. -non is from an IE suffix -na-, cf. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lina.
Both Ak. lipištu and Sum. nu mean "male genitalia" (lipiššatu is "female genitalia"); also the symbol of nu is clearly depicting a male organ. It may be a parallel of IE *neu2 (in Pokorny) = "to make a push ( in Greek there is a verb νύσσω, νύττω or νύγω (nysso/nytto/nygo) meaning "to prick").
DeleteAbout the Skt. guṇa-, I have not understood yet which is the IE root of it. I don't know if this γόνος = μίτος in Hesychius is the same with γόνος = seed, but if it isn't, which is its root? if there is not a common IE root here, as the difference between Greek o and Sanskrit u sujests, then it is a loanword, isn't it?
DeleteThere are other roots with similar meaning:
Deletenogu̯-, nogu̯od(h)o-, nogu̯-no- 'nude, naked'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1392.html
neu-dh- to lust, desire, yearn for
Sumerian generaly drops stops and simplifies to CV, so neudh -> neu -> nu, which could be another source for the etymology. neudh could be the source of νύσσω, νύττω or νύγω.
Mitos (as a god representing "seed", "sperm").
Deletehttps://books.google.gr/books?id=z2WjVXwTPCgC&pg=PA42&dq=mitos+krateia&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfsKyg28XJAhVMPRoKHRHMBkAQ6AEILzAA#v=onepage&q=mitos%20krateia&f=false
I checked again at Hsychius; the only thing I could find is a word γοίνακες goinakes = "sprouts" (βλαστοί)'; also the word γονής (gonēs) for the plant narcissus.
DeleteIf this suggestion makes sense for Hip :
ReplyDeleteFrom Middle English hipe, hupe, from Old English hype, from Proto-Germanic *hupiz (compare Dutch heup, Low German Huop, German Hüfte), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱewb- (compare Welsh cysgu (“to sleep”), Latin cubāre (“to lie”), Ancient Greek κύβος (kúbos, “hollow in the hips”), Albanian sup (“shoulder”), Sanskrit शुप्ति (śúpti, “shoulder”)), from *ḱew- (“to bend”). More at high.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hip#Etymology_1
Then I propose Sumerian šab "hips; middle" is perhaps a loan word from a Satem Branch and it is also recorded late. It is to be noted that Akkadian has qablu "hips; middle".
I think it may correspond to Greek osphys ὀσφῦς = "hips, middle" (of unknown or uncertain etymology); I have never thought about a possibility of a loan from a satem branch, thanks for this remark.
DeleteHesychius also gives a synonym for ὀσφῦς osphys, that is σάμβα samba, which I think is close to šab.
354 g̑egh-, g̑ogh- g̑ebh- branch, bush; picket
ReplyDeletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster-X.html#P0547
ĝeš [TREE] (5552x: ED IIIa, ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, unknown) wr. ĝeš; mu; u5 "tree; wood; a description of animals" Akk. işu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2052.html
About the meaning “to defile”, I would propose *pel, “gray colour” etc, as a possibility.
Deletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1478.html
In Greek there is also a word σπίλος spilos = “stain” and σπιλόω spiloō = “to defile”, but its origin is obscure; there is also a problem with its initial s.
http://www.myetymology.com/greek/spilos.html
http://biblehub.com/greek/4695.htm
That was a comment to Nirjhar's proposal below...
DeleteAbout Sum. ĝeš = "tree, wood", a rather crazy idea would be *kes = cut (as "something cut"), at least this is what they have proposed for greek ξυλον xylon = "wood, tree" (root xy- , -lon ending).
DeleteMakes sense. That which comes from cuts: wood.
DeleteIt may correspond to this Skt. word (kāṣṭha):
Deletehttp://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?tinput=kASTha&script=&direction=SE&link=yes
assuming that š in "ĝeš" could be from "sth"; the nasalized g though is still annoying.
Also I don't forget Hesychius; there is a word κάστον kaston (of "Athamanians", a doric people) which means "wood".
Kyriakos,
DeleteImpressive.
Tonight after searching for 72 hours straight (J/K), i found this possible word:
ReplyDeleteSumerian Pel "to defile; to be thin, light" with PIE *gwhis-lam Armenian jil "sinew, string, line," Lithuanian gysla "vein, sinew," Old Church Slavonic zila "vein"), from root *gwhi- "thread, tendon." Old French filer "string documents on a thread or wire for preservation or reference" (15c.), earlier "to spin thread," from fil "thread, string" (12c.), from Latin filum "a thread, string;
Maybe Gr. spilos is a loanword from Sumerian (or a similar language?); in Halloran I have found an expression "šu pe-el lá...dug4/du11/e: to defile; to be defiled, from 'hand' + pil, 'to be/make dirty etc.
DeleteTonight I propose to connect Sumerian sud; su3-ud "(to be) distant; (to be) remote, long-lasting; (to be) profound" with PIE *sa-ra-, suffixed form of root *sa- (2) "long, late" (cognates: Sanskrit sayam "in the evening," Lithuanian sietuva "deep place in a river," Old English sið "after," German seit "since," Gothic seiþus "late," Middle Irish sith, Middle Breton hir "long"
ReplyDeletemaz [SWELL] (9x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. ma-az "to swell, rejoice" Akk. eleşu
ReplyDeletehttp://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e3656.html
Pokorny Etymon: 2. med- 'to swell'
Greek: μεστόω vb to fill up
I would also point out μαστός, breasts, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CF%8C%CF%82#Ancient_Greek
which comes, probably, from med-
From Proto-Indo-European *meh₂d-. Cognates include Sanskrit मदति (madati), ममत्ति (mamatti), Latin madeō, and Old Irish maidim. Compare Serbo-Croatian modar (“blue”).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%AC%CF%89#Ancient_Greek
I think the meaning etymon by wiktionary is not correct, at least for the PIE/greek.
Besides mastos, there is also mazos from mad-jos. The root *mad- is often connected with being wet, but there is another one meaning to swell:
Deletehttp://proto_roots.enacademic.com/1234/med-2
But I pointed out the meaning 2 (2.med). It's just that wiktionary mixes everythng.
DeleteYes, in the link I have given there are some more forms: mezea for penis has strangely z and semantically can be compared with phallos 'swollen penis'.
DeleteThere is also Latin muto = penis, also a Sum. word mud = to create.
DeleteAbout mezea / medea , others think that it is connected with μήδομαι medomai = to think, to plan etc (like Latin mentula < mens, for "penis"). Look also the conversation here:
http://classics-l.lsv.uky.narkive.com/UKOwYauf/aphrodite-nedea
bhelg̑h- 'to swell, bulge, billow'
ReplyDeletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0224.html
gaba [CHEST] (821x: ED IIIb, Old Akkadian, Lagash II, Ur III, Early Old Babylonian, Old Babylonian, Middle Babylonian, 1st millennium, unknown) wr. gaba "breast, chest; frontier" Akk. irtu
http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e1485.html
Since we were talking about thread, weaning, flax etc, I give today this potential parallel:
ReplyDeleteSum. NU = to spin (thread). (as a phonetic value)
with root *(s)nē- and *(s)nēi- (Pokorny) = "to sew together, to web, to spin"
Old Indian (unbel.) snāyati `umwindet, dressed', snā́yu, snāyu- f., n. `band, strap, sinew' (in addition probably nīví-, nīvī- `umgebundenes kerchief, cloth, Schurz')
gr. νῇ nēi`spinnt' (*σνήι̯ει; ἔννη `nebat', ἐύννητος `good gesponnen' prove Anl. sn-), Fut. νήσω nēsō; νήθω nēthō`spinne', νῆμα nēma`Gespinst, filament' (= lat. nēmen), νῆσις nēsis `the spinning' (: ahd. nāt `suture'), νῆτρον nētron`distaff (= staff for holding flax, wool, etc., in spinning)'; νώμενος, nōmenos νῶντα nōnta Gramm. probably from *νη-όμενος,nē-omenos *νήοντα nēonta.
lat. neō, nēre (*snēḫi̯ō) `spinnen', nēmen `Gespinst, Gewebe', nētus ds
mir. snīid `dreht; binds, afflicts, möht sich ab'; cymr. nyddu `nēre', corn. nethe, mbret. nezaff ds. (*sn(i)i̯ō); mir. snīm m. `the spinning, Drehen; distress'; gradation snō- in air. snāth(e) `filament', bret. neud ds.; (but cymr. ysnoden `lace, band', corn. snod `vitta' from engl. snood `Haarband'); air. snāthat `needle', cymr. nodwydd `acus, acicula', acorn. notuid, mbret. nadoez `needle'.
ahd. nāu `nöhe' (= lat. neō, gr. νῇ nē, Old Indian snāyati, yet without s-), nāt `suture'; got. nēÞla, aisl. nāl, ahd. nādala, ags. nǣdl f. `needle' (aisl. snǣlda `Handspindel', probably reconverted from *snǣð[i]la); *snō- in agutn. snōÞ, nschwed. snod(d) `cord', ags. snōd f. `head fascia' (: air.s nāth, lett. snāte).
lett. snāju, snāt `lax zusammendrehen, spinnen', snāte, snāne, snãt(e)ne f. `leinene cover';s-los: nâtns `leinen, zwirnen', nât(e)ne = snãt(e)ne; *nī- as zero grade to *nēi- (see above Old Indiannīví-) in lit. nýtis `Hevelte or Weberkamm', lett. nīts `part of Webstuhls'.
Old Church Slavic *nitь `filament, rope', russ. nítь `filament', skr. nȉti `Webertrumm'.
The previous case was supposing metathesis. I downloaded the full pokorny dictionary:
ReplyDeletehttps://marciorenato.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/pokorny-julius-proto-indo-european-etymological-dictionary.pdf
But the problem is that the word in sumerian seem to be abundantly attested, from the 4th millenium, and it seems to be stable, so, I think there should be something else. On page 992, variation geibh- of gei-:
Though, as you can notice, there is a negative connotation.
Gel-1., p.998, has neutral connotation, and the variation geleb(h)-, glēb(h)- (: glǝb(h)-) and gleb(h)- (:gl̥b(h)-), p.1002 and positive connotations, where some of them relate to living tissue.
Maybe a root galbh/glabh- can explain gaba 'chest' as something hollow: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0559.html
DeleteThere is also gwalbh-: http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P0715.html
Loss of l maybe has a parallel in Sum. šeg 'frost' compared with Akk. šalgu.
In Skt. we have garbha 'womb', which becomes gabbha in Prakrit and in Marathi gābhā means ʻheart, coreʼ.
I don't get the relationship between womb and chest. Maybe cavity?
DeleteThere is also this root (s)kē̆p-, (s)kō̆p-, and (s)kā̆p-, (s)kē̆b(h)-, skob(h)-, and skā̆b(h)-
Deletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1738.html
which I have have compared previously with Sum. gaba = "plough"
in Latin this root gives scapula = shoulder.
in Greek σκάφη skaphe = something dug/scooped out (e.g. tub, trough, skiff, light boat - meaning a hollow thing. σκάφος skaphos means "boat" as a hollow thing, something hollow. glaphyros γλαφυρός means also hollow and is a common adjective for boat / ship (ναυς naus) in Homer.
Sum. gaba also means "a designation of sheep"; isn't that strange?
Deletehttp://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sheep
Now that you speak of an animal, there is a word for portuguese (specially spanish) that is very close methastesis of gaba, vaca (cow). So I checked the etymology:
DeletePokorny Etymon: u̯ā̆kā 'cow'
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P2085.html
Maybe the other root for bull is a metathesis of waka: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cow
DeleteAs for "cavity", why not the obvious one?
Deletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0954.html
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cave
Well, not so strange, if it means young sheep, lamb, because Skt. garbha and IE gwalbh- can mean also embryo and young animal, being the product of the womb (including calf, although irregular, see http://www.dwds.de/?view=1&qu=Kalb). Maybe also gabar (gab-bar) and gabartur (gab-bar-tur) 'herder' are connected, as people having to do with young animals and their birth.
DeleteThe root (s)kabh- can be good for the plough, while for chest seems more difficult.
My idea is the same as Daniel proposed, the relation between chest and womb can be cavity, hollow cavity (I cited the root of glaphyros too, glabh-, there is also glaphein and glyphein, meaning carving).
We have already seen Sum. GAM as vulva from *gwambh-. In IE we have two parallel roots for womb, *gwambh- and gwalbh-, the first could have given gam, the second gaba, and specialized into chest one side and young animal on the other.
ab amar gaba is translated 'cow with suckling calf': ab is cow, amar is young, especially calf, and gaba? There is also amargaba "a designation of children of female workers". But also amarga 'suckling calf'. So, now I have a doubt: is not gaba connected with ga- 'milk'? Its Akk. equivalent irtu is especially used for female breast. So, gaba can also be a sheep that gives milk...
To avoid confusion, the reply is to the previous reply of Kyriakos. The idea of cave is interesting, also because the root means also 'to swell', connectable to breast.
DeleteThe word for bone in sumerian is really odd "^giripadra", but it seems that ^giri is related to bone, foot, legs.
ReplyDeletehttp://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2189.html
kau-l-, ku-l p.1458 https://marciorenato.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/pokorny-julius-proto-indo-european-etymological-dictionary.pdf
Seem to be a good match.
I remembered this: If we consider that padra is a fonetic construction, we have that dr is a representation of retroflex d, as is defended by many sumeriologists. So,have giri pada. But this pada does not come from ped, foot, but ped, container, also means to hold. And the giri comes from Pokorny Etymon: 1. krep-, kr̥p- 'form; corpse, body'
Deletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1035.html
So, we have kRpaDa= body holder. Or simply, by simplification, gir3, giri3= holder.
Today I give another Satem Proposal :
ReplyDeleteSumerian sar "to run, hasten" with PIE *kars "to run. to hurry'' Greek -khouros "running," Lithuanian karsiu "go quickly," Old Irish and Middle Welsh carr "cart, wagon," Breton karr "chariot," Welsh carrog "torrent" Latin currere "to run" Tokharian: A kursär, B kwarsär (PT *kwärsär) 'league, course, path etc etc.
It is also that the Sumerian word is attested late.
I am not sure Sanskrit Sara, which has meanings of ''moving,going,motion'', can be related or not.
Maybe the Tocharian kwarsär reveals that this is the root *k(')war of Skt. carati, cakra. http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1092.html
Deletehttp://proto_roots.enacademic.com/1092/k%CA%B7el-1%2C_k%CA%B7el%C7%9D-
It includes also Skt. karṣ- 'to draw, plow'.
Sum. sar can be connected instead with Skt. sarati 'to run, flow, move', which is not satem:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P1699.html
There are some roots in PIE, that begin with st and sp, and which have similar meaning with many roots whose initial consonants as st and sp:
ReplyDelete(s)p(h)ei- 'sharp/pointed stick: spile, spit, etc.'
sraku-to- 'sharp-edged'
(s)tei- 'sharp, pointed; spike, style, stylus'
(s)teig- 'to stick, prick; sharp'
(s)ter-n- 'thorn, prickly stalk'
steb(h)-, and stēb(h)- : stəbh-, nasalized stemb(h)-, step-, also stēp-?, nasalized stemp-, nominal stəbho-s, stemb(h)ro-s, stomb(h)o-s 'stump, post, pillar; to support, etc.'
sterg-, sterk- 'to care for, pay careful attention to'
That looks like
ṣpr (a-a) ṣapāru "press down, inlay, inset; wink (eye)" (A, OB, SB, B)
špr (a-u) šapāru "send, dispatch, write; (Št) govern" (A, OA, OB, MB, SB, B)
ṣpr (i-i) ṣapāru "press down, inlay, inset; wink (eye)" (A, B)
spr (i-i) sepēru "write in Aramaic script" (NB, A)
špš (?-?) šapāšu "(meaning unknown); cease?" (OB, B)
špṣ (i-i) šapāṣu "clasp, enfold; (Gt) wrestle, grapple; (D) keep enfolded" (A)
šps (i-i) šapāsu "clasp, enfold; (Gt) wrestle, grapple; (D) keep enfolded" (B, OB)
špt (?-?) šapātu "be malicious, treacherous" (SB, B)
špṭ (a-u) šapāṭu "issue strict orders; reprimand" (A, OB, B)
špṭ (i-i) šapāṭu "proclaim judgement, exercise authority"
štq (a-u) šatāqu "cut, split; tear" (A, B)
šṭr (a-u) šaṭāru "write, write down, inscribe"
sṭr (a-u) saṭāru "write down; inscribe tablet, stele; copy tablet; put down in writing"
sṭr saṭāru "write down; inscribe tablet, stele; copy tablet; put down in writing"
šṭṭ (a-u) šaṭāṭu "rip open" (SB, B)
I commented earlier that many of the PIE that begins with ShT/ST resembles skilled work with a stone. Like a stylus.
Tonight I propose to connect Sumerian peš again, this time for the meanings of "innards; to breathe; grandson; descendant; to give birth (to); (to be) pregnant; pregnancy'' with PIE *pas "penis" (cognates: Sanskrit pasas-, Greek peos, posthe "penis," probably also Old English fæsl "progeny, offspring," Old Norse fösull, German Fasel "young of animals, brood" etc etc.
ReplyDeleteI think original sense sense was birth related, rather than just the penis, as in Old English, Old Norse or German.
In Sumerian the main meaning is innards, and thick/fat, sometimes pregnant.
DeleteSo, if thick/fat is the root meaning, we can connect with this IE root *pai-: http://proto_roots.enacademic.com/1462/pei%CC%AF%28%C7%9D%29-%2C_p%C4%AB%CC%86-
The final -š can be an ending or suffix. In Skt. we have payas 'milk' (and also "semen virile, (met.) vital spirit , power , strength": maybe this can also explain 'descendant')
Thank you, It looks cool!.
DeleteI would propose also the root *bheu- etc
Deletehttp://proto_roots.enacademic.com/240/bheu-%2C_bheu%CC%AF%C7%9D-_%28bhu%CC%AF%C4%81-%2C_bhu%CC%AF%C4%93-%29_%3A_bh%C5%8D%CC%86_u-_%3A_bh%C5%AB-
I Greek we have φύσις physis = nature, origin etc, the main verb is φύω phyō = bring forth, produce, put forth.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fu%2Fw&la=greek&can=fu%2Fw0&prior=fu/sis
also φυσόομαι physoomai= to be swollen
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fu_so%2Fomai&la=greek&can=fu_so%2Fomai0
also φυσιάω physiaō = blow, puff, snort, breathe hard, pant
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=fusia%2Fw&la=greek&can=fusia%2Fw0
This Evening I Propose To Connect Sumerian gida "lance, spear" to Proto-Indo-European *ghai- "to propel, prick" (cognates: Sanskrit hetih "missile, projectile," himsati "he injures;" Avestan zaena- "weapon;" Greek khaios "shepherd's staff;" Old English gar "spear;" Old Irish gae "spear"Old English gad "point, spearhead, arrowhead, pointed stick used for driving cattle," from Proto-Germanic *gaido "goad, spear" (cognates: Lombardic gaida "spear").
ReplyDeleteSecond Proposal,this was already suggested by Giacomo, in the last posts discussion :
ReplyDeleteSumerian paĝ pa-aĝ2; pa-an "breathing, breath; to breathe" with Proto-Indo-European *pnau-(?) "to breathe" Greek pnoe "breath," pnoia "breathing;" Old English fnora "sneezing," fnæran "to snort" Sanskrit prāṇa 'breath'.
However, I suspect the SKT. word is actually related to this root -
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/U/P0078.html
I could be that prANa is related with Pokorny Etymon: pleu- 'to flee, fly, run; flow, swim'
Deletehttp://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/X/P1538.html
But since we have the word in sanskrit for lung (which is Pokorny Etymon: pl(e)u-mon-, pleu-ti̯o- 'lung') as klmuon. It doesn't go along the usual rules of initial p of PIE -> k. Since both have similar roots, I say both have similar initial sounds (there's gAla for flow). I think, then, it is more likely to use another root that has a similar sound:
Pokorny Etymon: bhleu- 'to bloat, swell, blow up; flow'. bh maps to p, for this etymon in several branches of IE. All of them with positive meanings, related to gain. And many of them with t. So probably there is an intermadiate pleut. Rhotacization or l and twould lead to pran.
Sorry, I meant, Pokorny Etymon: pleu- 'to flee, fly, run; flow, swim', this one keeps the p, as in plavati in sanskrit.
DeleteThe rest of the argument is the same as above, I just kept many windows opened. I'm sorry.
DeleteI think this pa^g is related to pank, to swell, which is more related to inflate.
DeleteHi, the Skt. verb prāṇ- is pra+an: http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/MWScan/2014/web/webtc/indexcaller.php
DeleteSo, the root is really that proposed by Nirjhar, *an-.
About Sum. paĝ pa-aĝ2; pa-an, we can suppose that r was lost, and the double a would come from pra-an. Otherwise, *pneu does not work very well. There is also English pant, of uncertain origin. In Sum. the noun breath is also paĝta.
pank/pang would be perfect phonetically but does not seem to be connected with breath: http://proto_roots.enacademic.com/1444/pank-%2C_pang-
The last link is missing the comment about the meaning of "inflating", as contained in Pokorny's dictionary itself.
DeleteBTW, I would like you to comment on my bone attempt.
Yes, inflating is there also in the link I have given (in the Latin translation inflari), it can be connected with the concept of breathing, only we lack a verb meaning breathing.
DeleteAbout bone, in ĝiripadra I don't see an IE cognate. pad there is the sign for 'breaking', a concept which maybe was easily connected with bone. ra is a suffix (compound verb verbal element).
So, why not connecting padra with a fonetic reading, with a retroflex D? Syllabic representation was also common. That would make the word sound like body support.
DeleteMy Last Proposal of the day :
ReplyDeleteSumerian Kalag ; kal-ga; kalag; kal-la "(to be) strong, powerful, mighty; to reinforce; to provide for" with Sanskrit कल्य Kalya''Strong,vigorous,dexterous,healthy, auspicious etc etc.
Sum. buluh ="to vomit; to burp" (Akk. arû; Gešû) I think is comparable to *bhleu-.
ReplyDeleteFor example in Gr. we have φλύω phlyō = “to boil over”
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0058%3Aentry%3Dflu%2Fw
According to Hesychius φλύω phlyō means also “to vomit” (φλύσει = ἀποβαλεῖ. ἐμέσει. ζέσει) and “to burp”, “to belch” (φλύσσει = ἐρυγγάνει).
Thank you, its another cool looking one!.
Delete