tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post7023110973500320072..comments2024-03-12T09:39:48.847-07:00Comments on New Indology: The wonderful adventures of Bos Indicus across EurasiaGiacomo Benedettihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-7647120946855044062019-12-19T22:42:10.342-08:002019-12-19T22:42:10.342-08:00The Hungarian grey cattle breed is a true Hungaric...The Hungarian grey cattle breed is a true Hungaricum, an indigenous,legally protected lovestock of Hungary. It is one of the most famous hungarian features of the whole world. Traditional herding technology-an extensive goulash keeping and cultural heritage built on hundreds of years of tradition is combined with a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSiAWs5fVYU" rel="nofollow"> Hungarian Grey Cattle </a> certificate of origin that meets the expectations of the age.greatseohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07554630340903391922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-13915478151784613192018-10-14T03:14:14.639-07:002018-10-14T03:14:14.639-07:00From what we know, the zebu originated in South As...From what we know, the zebu originated in South Asia (not only present India, Mehrgarh is in Pakistan at the border with Central Asia), and was imported in Central Asia, but this does not mean that speakers of certain languages followed the zebu. Also in Africa there are many zebus apparently brought by the Arabs, in Egypt there were already 2000 BC, but this did not bring a new language.<br /><br />About R1a, we need more ancient DNA from West and South Asia. At the moment, the most ancient finds of R1a are from Eastern Europe and Siberia. But R1 was found also in Iran Neolithic. Migrations could have been from the south after the Ice Age, but they had to be from the north during the Ice Age. This could have brought the recently studied 'Siberian Neolithic' component to Central and South Asia.<br />West Asia was not a barren wasteland during the ice age and post ice age period, there were the Kebaran, Natufian and Zarzian cultures, presence of wild cereals and pulses was a great help for people growth.Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-7285782004530943902018-10-12T12:08:41.879-07:002018-10-12T12:08:41.879-07:00It actually does confirm Out of India theory; your...It actually does confirm Out of India theory; your argument about the presence of Zebus in Central Asia is false, because since the Bos Indicus was an exclusive legacy of the South Asian region and was domesticated in the India/South Asian region proper, then it means that it went OUT OF INDIA TO CENTRAL ASIA! <br /><br />There were Indus Valley fortifications and outposts in Central Asia such as Shortugai and the BMAC culture, and Indians/Harappans were travelling back and forth for trade between those two regions. The Tarim mummies have both Indian paternal and maternal genes, which suggests that Indo-Europeans migrated out of India to Central Asia and Europe. <br /><br />Also this is false, R1a is definitely an Indian origin genetic haplogroup and there is zero evidence for it having a West Asian origin. One as R1a goes from South Asia to West Asia and even Europe, IT DECREASES! Vast vast portions of Western Europe do not have the R1a genetic haplogroup but large portions of Turkic-Altaic speakers in Siberia do, and this language group have close affinities to the so called "Dravidian languages." <br /><br />Also West Asia and Central Asia were barren wastelands and were uninhabitable and unsuitable for large populations during the ice age and post ice age period, and large portions of these regions still are to this day. Thus it is completely ludicrous and idiotic to think that a large populous haplogroup like R1a could have arisen in those regions and not South Asia/India which were highly fertile and habitable during the ice age and post-ice age, and humans migrated FROM A SOUTH TO NORTH DIRECTION AS TEMPERATURES INCREASED! <br /><br />R1a in South Asia is at least more then 12k years old while in Western Asia and Europe its far more recent, and this completely refutes the whole AMT idea completely as the age of R1a in South Asia completely predates the AMT period and yes it is infact the oldest in South Asia and not Europe or Central Asia. DanNeutronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14645303886079656399noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-88979179688154332542014-08-26T23:59:52.160-07:002014-08-26T23:59:52.160-07:00Please let me know if you're looking for a aut...Please let me know if you're looking for a author for your blog.<br />You have some really good articles and I think I would be a good asset.<br /><br />If you ever want to take some of the load off, I'd love to write some material for your blog <br />in exchange for a link back to mine. Please blast me an email if interested.<br />Many thanks!<br /><br />Also visit my blog post - <a href="https://www.facebook.com/DinoHunterDeadlyShoresHackToolCheatsAndroidiPhone" rel="nofollow">dino hunter deadly Shores hack tool</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-49179951935443502842013-04-09T06:40:09.897-07:002013-04-09T06:40:09.897-07:00Thank you for your comment, Dr. Elst. Actually, I ...Thank you for your comment, Dr. Elst. Actually, I am not sure that it confirms the OIT, because not all IEs are associated with zebus, and the presence of zebus in Central Asia is so ancient that it is no more an exclusively Indian animal in the Bronze Age. Moreover, Mehrgarh where the zebu was domesticated already in the Neolithic is not really in India, is on the border between the Indo-Aryan and the Iranian worlds. I am more inclined to see Southern Central Asia as the PIE homeland than India, and some recent genetic arguments about SNPs of R1a tend to show that Indian R1a is a particular branch, and not the origin of the haplogroup. And the Western Asian autosomal component in India is quite strong, confirming ancient migrations from the west. I have recently discovered, making a genetic test with the Genographic Project, that in Europe there are strong percentages of a 'Southwest Asian' component (in Denmark 16%, in Tuscany 17%), so described:<br />"This component of your ancestry is found at highest frequencies in India and neighboring populations, including Tajikistan and Iran in our reference dataset. It is also found at lower frequencies in Europe and North Africa. As with the Mediterranean component, it was likely spread during the Neolithic expansion, perhaps from the eastern part of the Fertile Crescent. Individuals with heavy European influence in their ancestry will show traces of this because all Europeans have mixed with people from Southwest Asia over tens of thousands of years." According to a post of Dienekes, the West Asian component, apparently for a great part the same as the Genographic SW Asian, arrived into Europe during the Bronze Age: http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2012/07/bronze-age-indo-european-invasion-of.html.<br />Please see also my last post about Indo-Iranians and that about Ancient DNA from Europe, where I have made a recent addition. Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-6727125247817268012013-04-09T05:32:54.798-07:002013-04-09T05:32:54.798-07:00Having purposely avoided the (to my knowledge as y...Having purposely avoided the (to my knowledge as yet immature) genetic argument about the IE homeland, I have nonetheless wondered if there was no genetic evidence of the bovines that the migrating IEs must have taken with them. Here it is, and it tends to confirm the Out-of-India Theory.Koenraad_Elsthttp://www.koenraadelst.eunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-37462011750668627642012-07-19T06:22:59.531-07:002012-07-19T06:22:59.531-07:00Giacomo, A major paper on Iranian y-dna by Grugni ...Giacomo, A major paper on Iranian y-dna by Grugni et al. <br />http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041252;jsessionid=49A7AEE306635A328C7FAE5337A900B0Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-38908647209463738472012-06-27T14:09:14.965-07:002012-06-27T14:09:14.965-07:00There is also the Italian breed known as Romagnola...There is also the Italian breed known as Romagnola, see here:<br /><br />https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjb-smDi9N_okFdi5t7yY6WwnynN9r4Z8GtOLKl4Z8BLcHR-ln9A <br /><br /><br />The breed was formed by crossing Northern Italian cattle with those brought by the invading Ostrogoths, originally in the Crimean area and South West Ukraine:<br /><br />http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/romagnola/index.htmpconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-69721448646371807032012-05-07T21:01:56.138-07:002012-05-07T21:01:56.138-07:00There is a very recent and interesting paper on th...There is a very recent and interesting paper on the horse domestication issue!: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/05/02/1111122109.abstract?sid=25ccba66-c36a-4d76-ba12-e0eda95f4e6d<br />http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-05/uoc-mot050412.phpNirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-21805055832510096692012-04-30T01:23:33.100-07:002012-04-30T01:23:33.100-07:00A good deal of work in a neglected but vital area ...A good deal of work in a neglected but vital area of research. More detailed studies of bos indicus dna in europe and India may also tell us when the dna arrived. was it a historical roman era, copper/bronze age or neolithic.<br /><br />The latest commercial tests on human R1a y haplogroup reveal a more apparently parsimonious distribution of r1a in europe vs south asia. As usual south asia is inadequately sampled so the picture remains hazy. There appears to be deep split between the r1a clades of europe and India ruling out recent migration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-47972433571223909012012-04-28T22:31:17.493-07:002012-04-28T22:31:17.493-07:00Wonderful article and comments.Wonderful article and comments.Philliphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07829053219715458764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-66538290057942223332012-04-28T00:19:28.430-07:002012-04-28T00:19:28.430-07:00Yes the case of the Romans is interesting and some...Yes the case of the Romans is interesting and some also suggest that due to the hot climate a big mammals meat was quite difficult to obtain.<br />http://www.classicsunveiled.com/romel/html/romefood.html<br />Not just Hindus their fellow Zoroastrians also don't prefer it much due to the legend of Cow saving their master at childhood and some Chinese also disagrees to kill the mammal for meat as for its agricultural importance.<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taboo_food_and_drink#CattleNirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-22301004651257956772012-04-27T14:08:45.013-07:002012-04-27T14:08:45.013-07:00About Nirjhar's comment, it is interesting tha...About Nirjhar's comment, it is interesting that it seems that also for Romans beef was not normally eaten, someone says because it was sacred and only used for sacrifices, others say because oxen were used for agriculture.Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-40055627474851393702012-04-27T14:01:05.030-07:002012-04-27T14:01:05.030-07:00Shahnameh is certainly a very rich poem, but it is...Shahnameh is certainly a very rich poem, but it is quite late, around 1000 CE, then I think that it should be compared with the Avestan sources, which are the first we have for Iran, and certainly very interesting for reconstructing their ancient history. Some figures of Avesta and Shahnameh can be easily compared with Vedic figures, like Yama, Trita and Kavi. About Jiroft and Shahr-e-sokhta, it is possible that they are part of the Iranian civilization, it is interesting that on Jiroft vases we have clearly zebus... but are you somewhat connected with Iranian culture, Xcogitation? <br />About the Black and Caspian sea, it is a good question, but I don't know the archaeological situation. About the black Sea, I could say that it was an area of diffusion of Greek civilization in the age of the second colonization (800-600 BC). But it doesn't seem that big movements of people happened through that sea. There is also an important theory that the Black sea appeared quite late (5600 BC) due to the overflow of the Mediterranean sea, submerging many settlements and forcing people to flee to other areas like the Danube valley and Mesopotamia.Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-41278063813830521742012-04-26T21:17:30.550-07:002012-04-26T21:17:30.550-07:00Yes that is true but later aryas thought that &quo...Yes that is true but later aryas thought that "is it really needed to eat the meat of a noble and valuable animal?" the answer was no.Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-56714140581856314162012-04-26T13:22:07.177-07:002012-04-26T13:22:07.177-07:00You mentioned about Kampilya and it seems that its...You mentioned about Kampilya and it seems that its city plan is similar to Dholvira...this is amazing. Interactions with you are really letting me know many new things.<br /><br />Also another thought that come to mind from sea people. There could be three routes of connections across indo-european languages.<br />South of the the two inland seas ( Caspian, black sea), North of it......<br /><br />or may be across it.<br />What are the possibilities that similar to Mediterranean sea, Black Sea and Caspian sea would be hub of intercultural trade.<br />If Banana cultivation could spread from south east asia to africa, then what role these inland seas were playing in ancient trades?<br /><br />No matter what indo-european homeland theory one may profess, these seas come right in the middle of activity with many historically important rivers flowing in them ( volga, dniper, Danube, historically amu darya? )<br /><br /><br />So similar to port facing the arabian sea ( dholvira, dwaraka etc)...one need to find what important cities are there related to these inland seas.<br /><br />If historically mahabharata, ramayana are reliable, then probably Shahnameh wouldd also throw some light.<br /><br />Undersea archeology of these seas would probably in future , one may find new things.<br /><br />ex. Famous city of Darbent ( daraband ) in Russian dagestan or Sari the port city in iran....<br /><br />also How is Jiroft civilization/ shahr-e -sokhta is related to Shahnameh?Xcogitationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133644512560079349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-40913874531458815972012-04-25T14:35:53.527-07:002012-04-25T14:35:53.527-07:00About the question of Xcogitation, I find that it ...About the question of Xcogitation, I find that it is well posed. But we could not exclude that also from Anatolia there were migrations towards the west, the case of the Etruscans is significant, and also the Romans had the myth of Aeneas migrating from Troy to Latium. Actually, around the 1200 BC there were probably many migrations in the Mediterranean, because of the crisis of the states of the Near East, particularly the Hittite Empire: it's the age of the 'Sea Peoples'. In Italy we have the Proto-villanovan culture connected with metals: populations from Anatolia, advanced in metalurgy, came in Italy in search of metals, and they could bring with them Anatolian cattle.Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-75494253553308106182012-04-25T03:27:31.620-07:002012-04-25T03:27:31.620-07:00Dear Anonymous, thank you for the flattering epith...Dear Anonymous, thank you for the flattering epithet ;), about beef eating I didn't say it's already prohibited in the Rigveda, in the Vedas it seems that there is not such a prohibition at all. You can see here the Vedic Index, at the entry 'Māṃsa': http://archive.org/details/vedicindexofname02macduoft<br />About Jainism, I think we don't have bases for saying that it is old as the SSC, and I have the impression that it is rooted in the area of Bihar, although Neminath is connected by Jain tradition with Kathiawar and Krishna, who is, for me, at the end of the Late Harappan period. Actually, the ascetic movement to which Jainism belongs appears to be connected with the age of the Upanishads, but it's true that already in the late Rigveda (X.136) we have the Muni (with long hair, not like Jains), and in the Mahabharata a Muni and Yogin like Jaigishavya, adherent of Mokshadharma, is placed some generations before the battle, so maybe in the XVI century BC.Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-18707643406622549582012-04-24T20:47:21.635-07:002012-04-24T20:47:21.635-07:00Another thought : it would be interesting to know ...Another thought : it would be interesting to know <br />how zebu traveled to europe.. from south of the caspian and black sea or from north of it?<br />If it traveled from south most likely it is through trade, if north...then there is possibility that people migrated with it, spreading new agricultural technology.Xcogitationhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133644512560079349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-63303821252300925202012-04-23T21:44:15.321-07:002012-04-23T21:44:15.321-07:00Splendid! Seeing your vast gyaan of our culture i ...Splendid! Seeing your vast gyaan of our culture i clearly say you deserve the title of "Guru of Truthful Indology" (no kidding), so its confirmed that the holy cow concept and not eating the beef has its origins from the seed the Rikved. About Jainism some say It is old as to the time of SSC/IVC do you agree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-92009783033728642462012-04-23T14:34:47.331-07:002012-04-23T14:34:47.331-07:00About the first question, no, I don't suggest ...About the first question, no, I don't suggest that horses were used for riding by the Mitanni and Maryanni, but with chariots, also in war. The Scythians instead had to ride because in the steppes and prairies it's more practical: actually, it is quite difficult to accept that the light chariot could be brought from the steppes, since it needs roads and clean ground! <br />About the cow, already in the Rigveda she was called á-ghnyā 'not to be killed'. But in Vedic texts there are often mentions of eating of bovine meat (including the cow, dhenu, see the Vedic Index) and bovine sacrifice, but probably the ox was used normally and not the cow (when there is mention of go- it is ambiguous). In Harappan sites we have many bovine bones as eating remains. <br />So, probably the taboo of killing the cow was already there from Vedic times, because it was seen as the mother, source of milk, but surely not of oxen. There is a significant Sutta (Brahmanadhammikasutta, Suttanipata) in Pali verses, where the Buddha says to old Brahmins that in ancient times cows where not sacrificed, but when Brahmins started to desire to eat their meat, they asked the king Okkaku (Ikshvaku) to sacrifice them. From the context it seems implicit that the old Brahmins knew the concept of the sanctity of the cow, but that it was commonly sacrificed at that time.<br />I have now found a book visible online on the subject of the 'holy cow' (http://books.google.fr/books?id=VQ046M8T7IkC&printsec=frontcover&hl=it#v=onepage&q&f=false), but probably you know it.<br />In Jainism and Buddhism the principle of Ahimsa anyway is not particularly for cows. <br />Historical Jainism arose at the time of the Buddha, He was a younger contemporary of Mahavira, but jain traditions about previous Tirthankaras like Parshva and Nemi may have some bases.Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-20579464540250289912012-04-23T02:45:30.529-07:002012-04-23T02:45:30.529-07:00So are you suggesting that horses in Middle-east w...So are you suggesting that horses in Middle-east were introduced as ridable and as a war weapon by Vedic similar Mitannians? Like the trainer Kikkuli? If its the case then Scythians can't be credited as originators of its warification by riding them in wars.<br />There is a nother thing and it is about the cow, as you know many Arya scripts like Mahabharata, Manu, Rikved etc mentions Cow as a valuable food! But today its a taboo as the cow is holy and symbol of Ahimsa! though cow from Rikvedic times were precious and if i am not wrong there is a verse also in RV which says to protect and to not eat the animal!<br />So what is the deal? Is no-beef of todays aryas was a direct effect from brother cultures like Jainism and Buddhisms atmost support on nonviolence or the thought was there from the seed and overcame the other?<br />P.s. Jainism is a mysterious religion and also quite ancient isn't it?:-D.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-44647536264078455562012-04-14T10:31:09.662-07:002012-04-14T10:31:09.662-07:00You're welcome!:) In the Bronze age horses wer...You're welcome!:) In the Bronze age horses were used mainly with chariots, also in Mycenean Greece for instance. The myth of the Centaurs has been explained as a foreign (nomadic) population riding horses, who were seen like a monstrous unity of man and horse... This is also the situation in the Rigveda. According to the Vedic Index, riding in battle is not mentioned, however riding is mentioned in few passages (I.163.9; V.61.2). Anyway, one of the passages cited, I.162.17, is probably wrong, since the word (pārṣṇi) translated as 'heel' by Griffith, as something that can have hurt the horse, in the Mahabharata is 'the extremity of the fore-axle to which the outside horses of a four-horse chariot are attached'. So, horses were normally used with chariots, for races and battles, and this kind of use of the horse spread in the Near East in the II mill. BC, particularly with the Indo-Aryan 'Maryanni' warriors...Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-31523724845257100602012-04-13T21:48:29.511-07:002012-04-13T21:48:29.511-07:00This is a shocker! No one i think before this post...This is a shocker! No one i think before this post have tried to reveal the gravity of Cows among Indo-european cultures in such manner.<br />Certainly the spread of Zebu across whole eurasia is very significant as it again signals the highly probable migration out of South Asia to the whole Eurasia and other parts!<br />Yes we were most fond of Horse-Indoeuropean connection but as we have found before the emergence of Scythians ~800b.c. Horses were probably only used as a mode of transportation and as food!<br />The Rikved have no verse describing people riding horses! They only gave that impression to the devas like Aswins, Surya,Indra etc! So the warification of the mammal for humans was a far fetch in Rikvedic times which happend many generations after and ofcourse how can we forget the clear notion of Horses having uncanny 34 ribs in Rikved, the notion which can only be connected with the Arabian horse domesticated from Neolithic times.<br />Many gratitudes for joining the dots.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com