tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post292316176091368444..comments2024-03-12T09:39:48.847-07:00Comments on New Indology: The wheel from Mehrgarh to the Vedas and the Indian national emblemGiacomo Benedettihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-2503859030766963622020-08-11T09:36:46.915-07:002020-08-11T09:36:46.915-07:00I do not think that linguistic connection is neces...I do not think that linguistic connection is necessary for the spread of an item or an image, although of course it helps. About the Celtic wheel amulet, it is too far in time from the Mehrgarh one, and, as you can see here, they have 8 and not 6 spokes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taranis I do not believe that Druhyus have any connection with Celts or Druids as Talageri proposes, I see no reason to accept this identification, similarity of words like Druhyu and Druids is not serious without other proofs. Druid is derived from dru-wid 'knower of oaks, trees' (https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/druwits). Of course we have the Puranic tradition of some Druhyus (the sons of Pracetas) becoming kings in foreign lands, but we cannot imagine that Puranic authors knew about migrations to Europe, it must be something quite close to India, maybe in Central Asia like the colony of Shortugai. Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-16516142317185654692020-07-05T21:53:49.730-07:002020-07-05T21:53:49.730-07:00The diadem worn by Mohenjodaro priest signifies po...The diadem worn by Mohenjodaro priest signifies pot 'gold bead' rebus: potr 'purifieer priest' (RV). Mohenjo-daro priest decorated with trefoil, त्रिधा 'three minerals' of Traidhātavī iṣṭi, investiture closing ceremony of a yajna <br />https://tinyurl.com/v4gubxz<br />kalyan97https://www.blogger.com/profile/10697859363967489909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-72839462853230177472020-07-05T17:07:35.851-07:002020-07-05T17:07:35.851-07:00Mohenjo-daro priest decorated with trefoil, त्रिधा...Mohenjo-daro priest decorated with trefoil, त्रिधा 'three minerals' of Traidhātavī iṣṭi, investiture closing ceremony of a yajna <br />https://tinyurl.com/v4gubxz The priest wears diadem on forehead and also on right shoulder; his garment is decorated with embroidered trefoil, two dotted circles, one dotted circles. He is poddar assayer of metals. potr, purifier priest of Rgveda. See also evidence of Indus Script seals of Bogazkhoy. double eagle + hare, double-eagle + endless or twisted knot. Meluhha seafarfing merchants and artisan caravans moved into Mitanni. Indus Script has been deciphered.kalyan97https://www.blogger.com/profile/10697859363967489909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-44965914662099760472020-07-05T08:47:56.838-07:002020-07-05T08:47:56.838-07:00Thanks for responding sir,
~" Actually, dia...Thanks for responding sir, <br /><br />~" Actually, diadems were used also by ancient Persians, Assyrians and Jews, as you can see here: https://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/diadems.html Apparently it shows a common culture from Egypt and Greece to Indus valley, which is interesting, and maybe the Persian and Indus style are the most similar, which can be due to the Indo-Iranian culture."<br /><br />> Yes, sir you are completely right about that but out of all only Indus Valley and Egyptian are old in chronology, now we can't connect Egyptian to the Iranian/Parthian and Seleucid diadems since you yourself rightly suggested " it was not borrowed but was part of the ancestral culture of Greeks", also because of the fact Egyptians language was not IE. Now here is the part where I bring in Linguistic evidence since it is well agreed among the linguistic domain that the last five branches to remain in the PIE homeland are "Albanian, GREEK, Armenian, IRANIAN and Indo-Aryan.", so It is in Indus Valley we find the bust of the priest-king wearing diadem, so my opinion is wearing diadem was indeed " ancestral culture of Greeks" as well as Iranians after they moved out from PIE they continued their tradition. To put it more bluntly the ancestors of Greek and Iranians inhabited the site where the priest king's bust was found.<br />~"| Interesting also the comparison of centaurs with Indus monsters, but you can find a similar figure also in Mesopotamia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urmahlullu|"<br /><br />> Here again, I will use the same explanation linguistically we can't connect the Mesopotamia.<br /><br /><br /><br />Also please share your valuable opinion on my previous comment [ "close to the skull of a woman buried in the individual tomb H 33". [..], we can cite the Celtic use of wheel amulets"<br /><br /><br />According to Shrikanth Talageri's work the region of Mehrgarh was inhabited by Dryuhu tribes, who were, according to Talageri, were ancestors of Celtic, Germanic, Italic branches, now here we see a CELTIC RITUAL in Indus Valley solidifies Talageri's assertion. ]<br /><br />Thank You<br /><br />Babuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17254742090370841252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-90757467699188347422020-07-05T08:00:24.426-07:002020-07-05T08:00:24.426-07:00Thank you for your comment, Babu. Actually, diadem...Thank you for your comment, Babu. Actually, diadems were used also by ancient Persians, Assyrians and Jews, as you can see here: https://www.bible-history.com/sketches/ancient/diadems.html Apparently it shows a common culture from Egypt and Greece to Indus valley, which is interesting, and maybe the Persian and Indus style are the most similar, which can be due to the Indo-Iranian culture. The fact that diadem is a Greek word suggests that it was not borrowed but was part of the ancestral culture of Greeks. Interesting also the comparison of centaurs with Indus monsters, but you can find a similar figure also in Mesopotamia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UrmahlulluGiacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-3810672445723117242020-07-02T07:23:22.024-07:002020-07-02T07:23:22.024-07:00"close to the skull of a woman buried in the ..."close to the skull of a woman buried in the individual tomb H 33". [..], we can cite the Celtic use of wheel amulets"<br /><br />According to Shrikanth Talageri's work the region of Mehrgarh was inhabited by Dryuhu tribes, who were, according to Talageri, were ancestors of Celtic, Germanic, Italic branches, now here we see a CELTIC RITUAL in Indus Valley solidifies Talageri's assertion.<br /><br /><br /><br />______________________________<br /><br /><br /><br />Corroboration of Archaeological and Linguistic evidence(Indus Valley)<br /><br />As per the linguistic analysis of the isoglosses (linguistic features) shared by the various Indo-European branches, the twelve branches (i.e. their ancestral Dialect forms) are classified into three main and distinct groups in respect of the chronology and sequence of their migration from the Homeland (wherever that Homeland be located):<br />1. The Early Branches: Anatolian (Hittite) and Tocharian in that order.<br />2. The European Branches: Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, and Slavic in that order.<br />3. The Last Branches (given here by their historical locations from west to east, since their particular sequence of migration from the Homeland is not clear): Albanian, Greek, Armenian, Iranian and Indo-Aryan.<br /><br />All the linguistic scholars of the world agree on this, Now given the fact that two of the Last Branches to move/migrate out of the PIE homeland were Greek, Parthians (Iranians) we can find some archaeological evidence in Indus Valley to prove that these Last Branches moved out of Indus Valley.<br /><br />I came across a few such artifacts.<br /><br />1) https://imgur.com/a/yyVt1Rx<br /><br />2) https://imgur.com/a/rTfMuZe<br /><br />3) https://imgur.com/a/VwjhiFb<br /><br />Now in regards to the Diadem/Headband for kings[ https://www.academia.edu/19739021/The_Diadem_in_the_Achaemenid_and_Hellenistic_Periods_ANABASIS_5_2014_177-187 ], only two ancient Empires practiced this specific custom, which was Egyptian and Indus Valley, Now the Egyptian Empire can be ignored since it is well known Egyptian language was not IE language, so after the negation of the Egyptian Empire we are left with Indus Valley, so in my opinion, it can be safely assumed that the custom of Indus Valley continued in Greek, Parthians.<br /><br />Babuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17254742090370841252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-16789084047122316292019-10-26T06:23:04.525-07:002019-10-26T06:23:04.525-07:00Could the Mehrgarh 'amulet' be a replica o...Could the Mehrgarh 'amulet' be a replica of a potter's wheel? There is a Pashto word which describes this. څرخ ṯs̱arḵẖ, s.m. (2nd) A wheel (particularly a potter's, or of a water-mill or well). 2. A grindstone. 3. Circular motion, turn, revolution, the act of turning.(Pashto). This yields, arka 'sun, sun's ray' rebus: arka 'copper, gold'. May explain why Shamash is so represented with the 'spoked wheel' symbol. Sumerian tablet.https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l1ag53C6zY1qbz35lo1_500.gifvkalyan97https://www.blogger.com/profile/10697859363967489909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-40706907739773228472019-10-03T07:22:09.134-07:002019-10-03T07:22:09.134-07:00Presentation by Dr. Majul of the ASI
https://yout...Presentation by Dr. Majul of the ASI<br /><br />https://youtu.be/jU5SMcKePp0?t=1457Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-26706003506721298002017-01-09T07:46:37.229-08:002017-01-09T07:46:37.229-08:00I think it was invented with a similar purpose of ... I think it was invented with a similar purpose of the wheel. To make domestic utilities. The earliest evidence of spinning wheel is from 500CE in India. But, why not before. The design is extremely simple, and it resemble the poetic use of thread in vedic poetry. It has to be confirmed, though. The spoked wheel could had been first used without a use that didn't require too much environment stress, until it was developed enough to be used on cars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinning_wheel<br /><br />Maybe an analysis of remaining of clothing tissues found on SSVC could determine if a spinning wheel or the usual hand spinning was used. That the usual wheel was not used outside India for so long may be related to a type of natural fiber that was only adapted to Indian conditions? Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-31898807814405700492016-12-27T03:56:31.962-08:002016-12-27T03:56:31.962-08:00Petroleum products was not a problem due the inten...Petroleum products was not a problem due the intense trade with Summer e Akkad. Bitumen use was identified in the Merhgarth and in Summer boats in the 5th millenium BC. : <br /><br />"The use of asphalt/bitumen for waterproofing and as an adhesive dates at least to the fifth millennium BC in the early Indus valley sites like Mehrgarh, where it was used to line the baskets in which crops were gathered.[22]<br /><br />In the ancient Middle East, the Sumerians used natural asphalt/bitumen deposits for mortar between bricks and stones, to cement parts of carvings, such as eyes, into place, for ship caulking, and for waterproofing.[8] The Greek historian Herodotus said hot asphalt/bitumen was used as mortar in the walls of Babylon,[23] as did Moses in reference to the Tower of Babel.[24]"<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asphalt#Ancient_times<br /><br />Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-73223770129356420272016-12-27T02:54:02.519-08:002016-12-27T02:54:02.519-08:00Thank you for the interesting comment, I agree tha...Thank you for the interesting comment, I agree that the amulet is most probably not a spoked wheel but rather a symbolic pattern, that could later be identified with the wheel.<br /><br />Interesting the hypothesis of a plant section, I have found no reference to poppy in Mehrgarh, in India it appears in 2000 BC from Sanghol, east of Harappa. Poppy pollen has been found in the BMAC around the same period. However, poppy has not six spokes but twelve as you observe. I wonder if other plants could have inspired that pattern. There are also fruits and melons (cultivated at Mehrgarh) who have a 'spoked' cross section: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Cross_sections_of_fruit<br /><br />Anyway, if the Vedic concept of the 6 seasons was already adopted in the Chalcolithic, that could be the main reason of the symbol, where the circle is the cyclical time of the year and the spokes are its natural division. Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-8534506479806663572016-12-26T17:54:37.784-08:002016-12-26T17:54:37.784-08:00As Nirjhar asked for my opinion on the article: In...As Nirjhar asked for my opinion on the article: In general, a very interesting compilation of evidence. However:<br /><br />1. Not everything looking like a wheel depiction needs to depict a wheel. A transect through a poppy seed-capsule, e.g., looks exactly like a twelve-spoked wheel, and psychoactive plants have always inspired symbolism (Cannabis leaf as modern example). I don’t know whether Mehrgarh cultivated poppy. [If so, it would raise the interesting question how a plant domesticated in the Western Mediterranean, but unknown to Early NE Farmers, so early found its way to South Asia]. Nevertheless, while the Mehrgarh copper amulet looks like a six-spoked wheel, it might, theoretically, also be an abstraction of, e.g., a six-petal flower. C.f. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svadhishthana<br /><br />2. The wheeled vehicle was the endpoint of a long technological development: The earliest wheels were flywheels. Spindle whorls are evidenced from 6mBC Greece, and didn't look much different from those Harappa wheels depicted in the article. Technically more sophisticated were wheel drills; the flywheel stabilized the drill by gyration. Mehrgarh had a quite sophisticated drilling technology, as evidenced by drilled Carneol and Lapis Lazuli pearls. But the same applies to Central Europe_ Shaft-hole axes, appearing latest during the 5th mBC, are unthinkable without well-developed wheel drills. Finally, of course, we have the potter's wheel, well evidenced from 4th mBC Mesopotamia. <br />Essentially, while any kind of wheel depiction, model etc. demonstrates that the culture in question had the technological base from which wheeled vehicles might have evolved, it is no proof that these wheels were ever meant to be mounted below a vehicle, instead of on a spindle, drill, or some other kind of tool.<br /><br />3. The above shows that inventing the wheel wasn’t the problem. The technological challenge for early carts was the axle bearing: Strong enough to support heavy weights, stable enough to maintain direction, yet with low friction in order not to run hot. Hard wood or metal (copper), and sufficient greasing, e.g. birch tar (Central-Eastern Europe) or petroleum products (Near East). This aspect has received surprisingly little attention so far, including linguistic research on terms like “bearing”, “(shaft) housing” and “greasing”. Yet, it is exactly what anybody trying to prove something related to early carts, and not just spinning whorls or children toys, needs to focus upon.<br /><br />4. As concerns invention of the cart, the earliest securely dated evidence, the Flintbek trails (N. Germany) and the Bronocice pot, points to Funnelbeakers ca. 3400 BC. CT might be contemporary or a bit earlier, but still lacks AMS dating; the same applies to Maykop. Those early carts in CEE from around 3400 BC or a bit earlier almost certainly used solid, not spoked wheels.<br />It is difficult to construct a mid 4th mBC link between Flintbek n. Kiel and Mehrgarh. If both knew the cart, it was probably due to independent invention. The technological base, namely the flywheel, also existed in Mergarh.<br /><br />5. Early carts had to deal with various stability issues on the wheel –> axle -> bearing complex. It probably took some centuries to technologically master that complex before tackling the next challenge, namely weight (and stability) reduction by replacing solid with spoked wheels. All prehistoric flywheels should have been solid, so the spoked wheel was another major invention. <br />That invention clearly took place somewhere in SCA (maybe driven more by wood shortage than desire for weight reduction), and required mastership in wood bending. Estimating Neolithic/ CA innovation speed is extremely speculative, but my gut feeling is that it rather required close to a millennium than just 1-2 centuries to move from the solid-wheeled to the spoked-wheeled cart. IOW – I deem spoked wheels by around 2500 BC well possible, but 3600 BC feels far too early. This implies that the Merhagarh copper pendant in all likelyhood displayed something else than a spoked wheel.FrankNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01292462554916779884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-51562073964415030212016-12-16T06:43:48.379-08:002016-12-16T06:43:48.379-08:00Interesting and clever arguments, however, about A...Interesting and clever arguments, however, about Anatolia, we have the DNA of the western part which contributed to European Early Neolithic, while we do not have from the cradle of agriculture and stockbreeding, the Taurus area and Northern Mesopotamia. My idea is that the PIE homeland is in the Taurus-Zagros region, that had a common culture in the Neolithic with roots in the Zarzian Mesolithic culture of the Zagros. This can explain why Anatolian is so archaic, although it did not spread initially to western Anatolia, which had a different Neolithic culture.<br />We can also add that Old Iranian had a very pure IE vocabulary, I have the impression more than Sanskrit.<br /><br />Recently we have seen from genetics that Iranian Neolithic and Chalcolithic people possibly spread to Anatolia and Greece, Iran and India, and the Eurasian steppe. About India, we need the ancient DNA that will come very soon, but<br />I think that it is possible that already the first Neolithic wave was IE, maybe kentum like Bangani, although the most important wave was the Chalcolithic wave, probably already satem like all Indo-Iranian. The wheeled vehicle vocabulary was shared in that period, and could also spread through loanwords.<br />To think a PIE homeland in South Asia has not sufficient archaeological support, and also genetically does not seem possible with present knowledge, for instance because of the absence of important IE haplogroups or SNPs in India belonging to R1b and R1a, and the absence of typical Indian haplogroups like H in other IE populations.<br /> Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-3661972636841424642016-12-15T23:55:55.963-08:002016-12-15T23:55:55.963-08:00Dear Giacomo,
As far as the linguistic argument i...Dear Giacomo,<br /><br />As far as the linguistic argument is concerned, I agree that it will support an Anatolian homeland before the split of Anatolian & non-Anatolian late PIE. <br /><br />However, from a genetic standpoint it now looks impossible. We now know that the Anatolian Neolithic farmers have contributed substantially to European Neolithic populations and this group was certainly not Indo-European. On the other hand, this group has not contributed to populations of South Asia beyond some Northwest groups like Pashtun and perhaps Baloch. This too is likely to have admixed into the Northwestern groups from Iran during the period of Islamisation since the Kalash entirely lack this Anatolian Neolithic admixture inspite of being one of the closest modern populations to Iran Neolithic. <br /><br />Hence, the Anatolian homeland theory for IE looks dead at the moment from the genetic viewpoint.<br /><br />We might ask, what about the Early Neolithic farmers from Western Iran ? This group looks a lot more promising as it is of the same stock which later on spread the Indo-European languages. This Iranian Neolithic ancestry also made inroads into Anatolia and even Greece from the late Neolithic/Chalcolithic period. As per Lazaridis et al, Iranian Chalcolithic groups are also the most ideal fit for the southern population that contributed to steppe_Eneolithic and the Yamnaya.<br /><br />However, as far as South Asia is concerned, it is a little problematic. First of all,even if we assume that the South Asian Neolithic is derived from the Iran Neolithic, than Iran_Neolithic derived populations were present in South Asia at Mehrgarh since 7000 BC atleast. The problem gets compounded by the fact that even sites like Bhiranna have 8th millenium BC dates for the Neolithic phase. In other words, by 7000 BC, Iran Neolithic derived populations was already fairly well spread acorss NW India/South Asia. Could we expect them to have been Indo-European at such an early date ? Very unlikely, whether we consider the wheel argument of Anthony & Ringe and even otherwise.<br /><br />Hence, for an Iranian homeland theory for Indo-Europeans to work, we need migration from Iran into South Asia during the Chalcolithic phase. But this again creates several problems such as :-<br /><br />1. Iranian Chalcolithic was already heavily admixed with Anatolian Neolithic, the ancestry which is largely absent in South Asia. Hence, a migration from such a population into South Asia looks improbable.<br /><br />2. According to the standard linguistic theory, the Indo-Iranians were the last to separate and the last to leave the PIE homeland. So, we would need a bronze age migration from Iran into South Asia. Such a migration into South Asia during its most prosperous Harappan Era does not have any archaeological support.<br /><br />3. On the contrary, all evidence of the Chalcolithic period and later suggests the opposite. We see the movement of Zebu cattle and of domestic buffalo from South Asia into Iran. We also see the evidence from archaeology of Harappan influence in Iranian sites of the Halil Rud valley such as Konar Sandal as well as in the Helmand valley such as Shahr-i-Sokhta.<br /><br />--------------------------------<br /><br />Certainly, the invention of wheel and wheeled vehicles could have had multiple origins. The Indo-European homeland could just have been one of the early indigenous centers of this invention. However, based on the fact that the Indo-Iranians have the most well-preserved vocabulary for wheeled vehicles, it makes most sense that they were the ones who moved the least from the PIE homeland. It therefore makes sense that Indus civilization, one of early centers of wheeled vehicles, was that likely homeland. If Indo-Aryans were intrusive into South Asia, they should not have the most intact wheeled vehicle vocaubulary that derives from PIE, since they would theoretically be moving into a place that already had, in the form of the Indus civilization, a very early and very extensive use of wheeled vehicles.<br />Jaydeephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01336330713605021262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-3669471161238105682016-12-15T08:56:38.015-08:002016-12-15T08:56:38.015-08:004 faced sumerian god.
https://br.pinterest.com/pi...4 faced sumerian god. <br />https://br.pinterest.com/pin/449656344022452850/<br /><br />Dicephalic Mayan God:<br /><br />https://br.pinterest.com/pin/343892121518808492/<br /><br />Tricephalic mask from the Lega people, Congo:<br /><br />https://br.pinterest.com/pin/23643966768862594/Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-56277457767727657872016-12-15T08:39:27.373-08:002016-12-15T08:39:27.373-08:00A tricephalic celtic head: the corleck head.
http...A tricephalic celtic head: the corleck head.<br /><br />https://dbsirishstudies.wordpress.com/2013/07/23/corleck-head/Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-5729469522170182132016-12-10T11:44:03.206-08:002016-12-10T11:44:03.206-08:00Thank you. I am most glad to be contributing. You&...Thank you. I am most glad to be contributing. You've got a wonderful blog full of insightful posts. I have been following your blog ever since your article on Indo-Iranians but never felt like commenting. <br /><br />I should have added that I have referring to the Monier Williams dictionary. Referring to it again, it appears that 'ushtra' is derived from root 'ush' which means to burn, punish, consume, kill or injure. Further we also learn that 'ushta' - ush + ta means burnt, quick, expeditious. Also 'usha' means saline earth. <br /><br />I am not sure what could be the correct derivation of the meaning of 'ushtra' but going by the above it might mean 1. an animal or object at the disposal of man to consume or make use of or 2. an animal/object that helps one to expedite his work or 3. since 'usha' also means saline earth, it may have something to do with the ploughing of the land. <br /><br />So the original meaning might have been used only for a bull used for ploughing. Subsequently with the invention of the cart, the word probably began to be used for a cart drawing bull and then subsequently a camel.Jaydeephttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01336330713605021262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-85451874887303495742016-12-10T10:02:06.324-08:002016-12-10T10:02:06.324-08:00I think it follows that caste division in a much l...I think it follows that caste division in a much later date, like in the beginning of the 1st millenium. Before that, there was no way to characterize a warrior class jointly with a priestly class, with an homogeneous set of skills, like riding a horse The lack of material resources required that battle skills were not restricted to a small number of people, but opened to the population at large. <br /><br />Similarly, in Europe, even after horses were quite large, it took quite a time until they were useful in full combat, using heavy weapons and shield. Around the time of the roman empire the chariot was obsolete. Later, in the middle ages there was a division in Europe somewhat similar to that of India, of nobility as the warring class, peasants as the shudra, jews as the vaishias, priestly class, though, was different, due chastity of chistianism. Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-12368913678898604112016-12-10T09:44:06.679-08:002016-12-10T09:44:06.679-08:00The chariot is an intermediate step into the utili...The chariot is an intermediate step into the utilization of the horse. In 2 ways:<br /><br />-The horse was small and weak(except for the arabic, which was small and strong) . It worked better pulling someone than carrying someone.<br />-A chariot can be easily stopped in the battlefield. A spear, which was a common battle weapon, could be thrown or stuck in the wheels and destroy it. <br /><br />By this, I can see 3 uses for a chariot in combat:<br />-Sending commands to the battle fields. <br />-Protecting commanders.<br />-Attacking commanders directly.<br /><br />So, the uses of horses was quite limited and it represented only the warring elite. It didn't take part in the direct combat. This is why chariots sometimes are buried (representing princes, generals and kings). I think it is straightforward to conclude that horse were rare animals, given the ratio of commanders to soldiers. <br /><br />Raising horses were a demanding thing, given that just a small percentage of them would be used at all, so they were likely imported. Likely from far away places. Like Mesopotamia (proto arabic horse) or some places in the steppes, which are also rare animals, save for some places near the Altai. Interestingly, this is where the largest invasions in history happened when horses evolved by humans to be larger, beginning in small scale around the 5th - 3rd century BC (Alexander and other commander's horses), full scale at the middle of 1st millenium with the Turks in Rome, until gunpowder was invented and used in large scale.Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-89582277911718527742016-12-10T08:39:41.061-08:002016-12-10T08:39:41.061-08:00In David's article its not thill is not the op...In David's article its not thill is not the operational word but the vedic word issa for thill.<br />postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-85185939088524717982016-12-10T08:33:04.662-08:002016-12-10T08:33:04.662-08:00about pahiyA, this is the one :
pradhí 8672 pradhí...about pahiyA, this is the one :<br />pradhí 8672 pradhí m. ʻ felly ʼ RV.<br />Pk. païa -- n. ʻ wheel ʼ, pāya -- m. Deśīn., K. pahī f. ʻ felly, wheel (of cart or well -- rope) ʼ; P. pahīā m. ʻ wheel ʼ, N. pahiyā, paiyā; Or. paï ʻ felly, tyre of wheel, wheelmark ʼ, pahiyā, païā, payā ʻ wheel, rim of wheel ʼ; Bi. H. pahiyā m. ʻ wheel of cart ʼ; -- ext. -- ḍa -- in G. paiṛũ n. pradhīyatē see pradadhāti.<br />Addenda: pradhí -- : WPah.kṭg. paiɔ m. ʻ wheel ʼ.<br />http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.2:1:1818.soas<br /><br />About Thill , we have thela in Bng. where ṭhelā /thila is to push , but for the English word I didn't find any dictionary .<br />ṭhēḍḍ 5512 *ṭhēḍḍ ʻ push ʼ. 2. *ṭhēll -- . 3. *ṭēll -- . [Cf. *ṭhēcc -- , *ṭhēss -- , *ṭhōss -- ]<br />1. P. ṭheḍā m. ʻ stumble ʼ.<br />2. S. ṭhelhaṇu ʻ to push ʼ; P. ṭhehlaṇā ʻ to thrust into water ʼ, ṭhillhṇā intr. ʻ to plunge into water ʼ; Ku. ṭhelṇo ʻ to push ʼ; N. ṭhelnu ʻ to push, poke ʼ, intr. ʻ to protrude ʼ; A. ṭheliba ʻ to push ʼ, B. ṭhelā, Or. ṭhelibā, Mth. ṭhelab; H. ṭhelnā ʻ to push ʼ, ṭhelā ʻ push -- cart ʼ (→ Bhoj. P. ṭhelā m.); G. ṭhelvũ ʻ to push ʼ, M. ṭhelṇẽ.<br />3. Ku. ṭelaṇo ʻ to push, thrust ʼ, ṭilṇo ʻ to cram ʼ.<br />*ṭhēṇṭha -- ʻ defective ʼ see *ṭhiṭṭha -- .<br />*ṭhēll -- ʻ push ʼ see *ṭhēḍḍ -- .<br />*ṭhēss -- ʻ push ʼ see *ṭhēcc -- .<br />Addenda: *ṭhēḍḍ -- . 2. *ṭhēll -- : S.kcch. ṭhelṇū ʻ to push ʼ, OMarw. 3 sg. pres.pass. ṭhelijaï.<br />*ṭhēll -- ʻ push ʼ see *thēḍḍ -- Add2.<br />http://dsalsrv02.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:1632.soas<br /><br />Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-37668116457326430472016-12-10T06:16:37.986-08:002016-12-10T06:16:37.986-08:00One of the arguments of vehicle wheel vocabulary b...One of the arguments of vehicle wheel vocabulary being a singular event before the spread of PIE is the specific case of reduplication in the reconstructed word * kwekwlos.<br /><br />This has to be kept in mind. Jaydeep the argument thAt non IE natives could not adopt wheel vocabulary since they already had wheels is an easy hump to cross for indologists since they postulate that they did it for everything else e.g. Place names , names for family members ...every sphere of life not just wheels.<br /><br />By the way the thill is called sAj in Hindi<br /><br />The etymology of pahiyA is unclear<br /><br /><br />There's the Germanic or English word hitch that may be related thill<br /><br />NIA has hinchko meaning swing in Gujarati<br />Bangla has an adverb or verb called hinchke meaning jerk or pull<br /><br />There ofcourse the verb Kheench in Hindi.<br />postneohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364121752386612217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-27473894027833718792016-12-10T03:34:22.524-08:002016-12-10T03:34:22.524-08:00Here you can see the dog papers discussion :
http:...Here you can see the dog papers discussion :<br />http://eurogenes.blogspot.in/2016/08/yamnaya-dogs.html<br /><br />I think you knew about it though .Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-52077308421554951422016-12-09T15:53:38.067-08:002016-12-09T15:53:38.067-08:00Can you give the reference of the dog paper?
I ag...Can you give the reference of the dog paper? <br />I agree with many considerations, but about Renfrew's model, the fact that Anatolian does not share the IE wheel vocabulary could strengthen the idea that the IE homeland is close to Anatolian, that remained isolated from the evolution of wheel vocabulary in Central-South Asia. This would be not the homeland but a center of technological innovation, that spread the spoked wheel and chariot vocabulary to other areas. <br />But simple carts with axle and solid wheels were present also in Europe at the same time as in Asia, as is shown by the Bronocice pot in Poland and the Ljubljana marshes wheel in Slovenia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel#History <br />So, where is really the origin, or are there multiple origins?<br /> <br />We should also consider that the word and concept of wheel is not necessarily connected with vehicles, it can also refer to the potter's wheel, that appeared first in the Middle East, see this from the same wiki entry: "Precursors of wheels, known as "tournettes" or "slow wheels", were known in the Middle East by the 5th millennium BCE (one of the earliest examples was discovered at Tepe Pardis, Iran, and dated to 5200-4700 BCE.) These were made of stone or clay and secured to the ground with a peg in the center, but required effort to turn." <br />Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-88815549187054336762016-12-08T07:45:53.360-08:002016-12-08T07:45:53.360-08:00I think geometrical developments like circles coul...I think geometrical developments like circles could have existed before the invention of the real wheel, but six-spoked wheel is a more complex feature, which in my view is previous to the adoption as a solar symbol for instante.Carlos Aramayohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15078753727610139222noreply@blogger.com