tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post1341579390908905526..comments2024-03-12T09:39:48.847-07:00Comments on New Indology: Can we finally identify the real cradle of Indo-Europeans?Giacomo Benedettihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comBlogger380125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-53091974908050141822018-10-17T09:33:52.059-07:002018-10-17T09:33:52.059-07:00"Genetically, Dravidians are a special popula..."Genetically, Dravidians are a special population, with some haplogroups typical of South Asia, the Middle Eastern hgs are more frequent in the high castes which were introduced by the Aryans of North India" --- i think most(not just high , i assume when you say high you mean the communities that don't get reservation , so called General Category ) of the caste communities in south have J2a and some have J2b. I am doubtful that they were primarily brought by the indo-aryan speakers from north .Anyways, the Toda branch of J2a seems to be distinct from rest of J2a that's prevalent in south asia. The toda J2 branch is most likely -> https://yfull.com/tree/J-M68/. Also, a lot of tamil communities seem to be very rich in Y-DNA L which is distributed across the western part of the subcontinent. https://yfull.com/tree/L/. Anyways, L seems to have been present in armenian chalcolithic age with no AASI. tim drakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05093741606718091068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-28318115768087096332016-09-20T19:52:32.569-07:002016-09-20T19:52:32.569-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Dr Purva Piushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05883980841903455890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-41746661994415213382016-02-16T19:31:29.813-08:002016-02-16T19:31:29.813-08:00Interesting that M269* is found at 15.4% in Zoroas...Interesting that M269* is found at 15.4% in Zoroastrians. There is a popular view that Christianity has it's roots in Zorostrianism (or pre-zorostrian practices/beliefs). Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14926451841727929290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-71641855877691490412016-02-11T03:30:00.434-08:002016-02-11T03:30:00.434-08:00The last sentence is not very clear: does it mean ...The last sentence is not very clear: does it mean that the evolution of the Zarzian was the principal factor in the origin of Pamir Mesolithic? This would confirm what I cited about Hissar culture of the area as derived from Zarzian. <br />There is an ambiguity about the chronology of Shugnou layer 1: in that paper it is dated 10700 on the basis of charcoal, before 21-23 ka because of affinities of Upper Paleolithic. In the first case, it is clear that Zarzian influenced late Shugnou, in the second, it is the opposite. But the first date is the only one with C14, so it should be reliable. Also the affinities with Baradostian cited below reveal a recurrent movement from West Asia, especially the Zagros, to Central Asia. Also the Afghan site of Kara Kamar is considered part of Near Eastern Aurignacian.<br /><br />In this book, p.126-7, you can find some discussion about Shugnou chronology and the tendency of Soviet archeology to see autochthonous developments: https://books.google.it/books?id=9x3VBwAAQBAJ&dq=Shugnou+layer+1+date&hl=it&source=gbs_navlinks_s Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-18283470427535835032016-02-10T09:08:46.712-08:002016-02-10T09:08:46.712-08:00More from the Author :
THE KULBULAK BLADELET TRAD...More from the Author :<br /><br /><b>THE KULBULAK BLADELET TRADITION IN THE UPPER PALEOLITHIC OF CENTRAL ASIA</b><br /><br /><i>In a broader context, the Upper Paleolithic industries of the Pamir–Tien Shan region are paralleled by those of the Baradostian in Zagros, specifically by the<br />best known ones – those of Shanidar, Warwasi, and Yafteh. Their characteristic features are a developed carinated bladelet production technology and a large<br />number of carinated burins. The predominant tools are Dufour blades and Arjeneh points (Olshewski, 1993a; Olszewski, Dibble, 1994; Olszewski, 1999; Otte et al.,<br />2011). A series of uncalibrated dates for Yafteh falls within the 35–31 ka BP interval (Otte et al., 2011).<br />Recently a new culture was described in western Iran, named Rostamian. A series of uncalibrated dates for its key site, Ghar-e Boof, is within the 37–31 ka BP period<br />(Conard, Ghasidian, 2011). The Ghar-e Boof industry appears to be very close to the Baradostian. In the Zagros Mountains, the Baradostian was succeeded by the<br />Zarzian, whose best known sites are Warwasi, Shanidar, Zarzi, and Palegawra. Zarzian primary reduction is characterized by single platform prismatic bladelet<br />cores and carinated cores with wide À aking surface. Microtools dominate the toolkit and include triangular inequilateral microliths (morphologically close to the Dodekatym triangular microliths), backed bladelets, and retouched bladelets. The Zarzian culture is broadly dated within the range of 20–12 ka BP (Olshewski, 1993b; Wahida, 1999). Final Upper Paleolithic assemblages resembling the Zarzian industry have been reported in the Levant (Ohalo II, Fazael X, Ein Gev I, Fazael IIIA and IIIB) (Nadel, 2003). Being the easternmost manifestation of the<br />Levantine Aurignacian (Olszewski, Dibble, 1994, 2006), the Baradostian links Kulbulak and Shugnou with Near Eastern Aurignacian sites such as Ksar<br />Akil, Hayonim, Kebara, Yabrud II, etc. The Levantine Aurignacian assemblages date to 32–26 ka BP. They contain carinated implements of various forms....</i><br />https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kseniya_Kolobova/publication/259523528_The_Kulbulak_Bladelet_Tradition_in_The_Upper_Paleolithic_of_Central_Asia/links/54e31e9c0cf2d90c1d9bf390.pdfNirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-86476361473999263342016-02-10T08:49:08.148-08:002016-02-10T08:49:08.148-08:00THE UPPER PALEOLITHIC ASSEMBLAGES OF SHUGNOU, TAJI...<b>THE UPPER PALEOLITHIC ASSEMBLAGES OF SHUGNOU, TAJIKISTAN</b><br />https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Kseniya_Kolobova/publication/257626768_The_Upper_Paleolithic_Assemblages_of_Shugnou_Tajikistan/links/54e31f1b0cf2d618e195d43d.pdf<br /><br />Some Interesting remarks:<br /><i>The presence of backed bladelets and a triangular non-equilateral microlith links Shugnou layer 1 with sites associated with the Zarzian culture in Zagros – Warwasi, Shanidar, Zarzi, and Palegawra (Olszewski, 1993; Wahida, 1999)</i><br /><br /><i>The presence of specific categories of small tools in the Upper Paleolithic<br />industries of the region makes it possible to correlate the late stage of Kulbulak with the Zarzian culture of Zagros. Perhaps the subsequent evolution of this culture was one of the factors (possibly the principal factor) in the origin<br />of the local Mesolithic.</i><br /><br />Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-58701894261951414192016-02-08T15:07:25.857-08:002016-02-08T15:07:25.857-08:00Also, note that by putting Iranian branch so much ...Also, note that by putting Iranian branch so much for the west will beg the question about the absence of satem influence in sumerian instead of only ketum. Note that the author speculates about the influence of Elam.Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-6021500516662346342016-02-08T13:48:09.807-08:002016-02-08T13:48:09.807-08:00What if they developed due areal influence, both l...What if they developed due areal influence, both laryngeal and retroflex? If they are 'common' or not may not be relevant to this issue. More over, phonetics is not enough. Syntax is important in considering the origin of a language. Or don't you think the conjugation patterns of verbs are not relevant? I merely cited other syntax problems concerning areal influence. Nepalese, Assamese and Bengali are surrounded by Tibeto Burman and Austric languages, so influence in changing syntax, that is, acquiring classifiers, is expected.Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-4475437028111025412016-02-08T12:50:38.466-08:002016-02-08T12:50:38.466-08:00Nirjhar, don't worry, I think we have enough a...Nirjhar, don't worry, I think we have enough archaeological data to give interesting suggestions. I will try not to speak of genetics...<br /><br />Daniel, only your first comparison is suitable because it concerns phonetics, but retroflex sounds are not common in IE languages. What I find interesting is that Kurdish shows h- in some words where also Anatolian languages have it.<br />I have found now that also the linguist Kümmel has noticed that initial laryngeals are preserved in some Iranian languages: https://www.academia.edu/9352535/The_development_of_laryngeals_in_Indo-Iranian Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-74665438375787466482016-02-08T08:49:02.453-08:002016-02-08T08:49:02.453-08:00It's not convincing that the laryngeals of Kur... It's not convincing that the laryngeals of Kurdish are related to those of PIE. It MIGHT be related to a genetic clade of PIE (we don't have dead to speak), but it is for sure being a language that changed a lot from any old satem language, IA, which as far as I know, do not have any laryngeals, not even those in isolated in mountains. Moreover, having a large historical discontinuity with phonological features plus having phonological features similar to those languages surrounding it, makes the case harder to sustain.<br /><br />If that reasoning holds, I can claim that IE languages are closely related to Dravidians, since they both have retroflex, a tendency of verbs to have gender agreement. Or that assamese is closely related to tibeto burman, since both have classifiers and many individuals have similar genetic clade.<br />Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-31389988448899044632016-02-08T03:28:57.993-08:002016-02-08T03:28:57.993-08:00I will soon publish a post on that.
Unfortunately ...<i>I will soon publish a post on that.</i><br />Unfortunately that will be sucide, wait for at least 6 more months.Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-5911817624583612392016-02-07T20:43:54.912-08:002016-02-07T20:43:54.912-08:00Nirjhar says you supported. But I support a variti...Nirjhar says you supported. But I support a varition of it, which serves as the bases from any theory that places urheimat in the Middle East. But due constrained place, the sound changes affect multiple dialectes. My theory bellow is based on this, but I didn't touch the laryngeal thing. Now that you support, I can find, many, many morecognataes.<br /><br />But I would not drive the conclusion from Kurdish since it is surrounded by languages with languages with laryngeals, either semitic or caucasian. Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-60707258480423567152016-02-07T14:28:19.840-08:002016-02-07T14:28:19.840-08:00I thought you didn't support laryngeal theory....I thought you didn't support laryngeal theory. Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-49331717622666928612016-02-07T13:54:37.454-08:002016-02-07T13:54:37.454-08:00Good question. Observing the apparent survival of ...Good question. Observing the apparent survival of laryngeals in Kurdish I suggested that Kurds have some very archaic IE heritage, comparable to Anatolian. Kurds have many haplogroups, and live at the border of different civilizations, so it is probable that they received various influences, but I think that they must be partially descendants of Zagrosian PIEs. Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-61280804994239500532016-02-06T23:16:12.982-08:002016-02-06T23:16:12.982-08:00Addendum: I think the model of linguist evolution ...Addendum: I think the model of linguist evolution based on simple branches is unrealistic and contradicts the wave model itself. A wave happens at every point, not just at what we assign as a prot language. A corolary of this it is that a language continuous contains language continous inside it and so on, and they mutually influence each other. For example, it is sometimes easier to me to understand dialects of spanish and italian (in this case this is rarer) than to understand many dialects of Portuguese from Portugal. See this for example:<br /><br />https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Romance-lg-classification-en.png<br /><br />The paper with the Thorn clusters is based on Glotalic Model, where, while branches differentiate, they still influence each other. Thomas V. Gamkrelidze and Vyacheslav V. Ivanov, Indo-European and the Indo-Europeans.<br /><br />The urheimat is around Armenia.<br /><br />Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-53031056273397282962016-02-06T23:13:34.372-08:002016-02-06T23:13:34.372-08:00Within India, some of the ketum remained, and with...Within India, some of the ketum remained, and with time, adopted signs of SSC, Proto elamite and Sumerian, with whom they had more contacts. Since the steppe was not a good place to live in , it took them back to a northern track all the way to greece. These were proto greeks. Later, in India they were arianized or when not, due to internal strife, were expelled from India. So, I can find Greek elements , without much modification in Sanskrit terms. Varuna/Uranus, Ikshvakus and Soma and other religious/clan terms. Similar things happened with Greek.<br /><br />Around 3000bc changes in settelement changes again. we see the Sarasvati area get densely populated and in 2500 BC whole region gets intensified in seatlements. The Vedic area is similar to the SSC between 2500-2300. So, I think Rig Veda is written around this time. Highest expansion is just before the 2200 BC period, which is also the time of the 4.2ka event. In fact, there is increase expansion to the south, so I’d associate this with the Ramayana, which is about expansion and victory. That is also the time of of strengthening that BMAC and Yaz appeared as well as the Andronovo horizon. This is the wave out of India Note here formed by these cultures were satem. When the climate turned for the worse, by ~1900, these groups, also migrated towards more humid areas, in Europe, but now, these were Satem. <br /><br />The aridification intensified and no longer rivers were enough to keep people around and from 1900 BC a large migration force people to the Ganges area. Later around 1300BC, the Gujarat zone disappears, which I link to Mahabharata, which is linked to doomsday ideas, Pyrrhic victory and internal strife.<br /><br />Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi,<br />miserere nobis,<br />dona nobis pacem.<br />Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi,<br />dona eis réquiem,<br />dona eis requiem sempiternamDaniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-88189390794070841162016-02-06T23:13:03.673-08:002016-02-06T23:13:03.673-08:00blogmaster, perhaps we could discuss this:
The i...blogmaster, perhaps we could discuss this: <br /><br />The image I made for this discussion. The photo is big such that the great quantity of desiccated rivers can be seen: http://s15.postimg.org/d8xvhom57/track2.jpg <br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPGVUrVP45U<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPGVUrVP45U<br /><br />I propose that there are 2 waves of agriculture from Middle East and 1 from India. The first, happened in the beginning of the Holocene, with a lot of melting from glaciers, and which proceded along the black lines in a fast procession, from O to d, beginning in ~9000bc and ending at~ 8000bc. This happened due the rivers along the mountains, as it can be seen in the large photo, along the coast of Iran. There are marks of many, many dissicated rivers. This wave didn’t go to Europe<br /><br />The second wave began around 6000bc, with the start of Holocene maximum. It consisted in the formation of channels to distribute water. There was a huge increase of population with this method, everywhere. It spread channeled agriculture through Europe and to South Asia. As there was not many plains with large rivers in the between, it took a long time to arrive in South Asia. In the mean time, the occupied areas b and c. As the climate as hot and humid, the steppe was favorable to expansion, so, from the over population from b and c ketum groups occupied the steppe. The satem groups eventually formed in d. Indeed, in this case, divergence is correlated with distance, some ketum groups from a were the first to arrive in e and then in f. This is the case of Hittite. <br /><br />IE arrived in India around 4200bc, in the second wave. Also, this is almost at the end of the Holocene maximum. It was right before the ending of the Holocene maxiumum around ~3900bc.<br />Notice that since 4200- 3800BC, there is a strong expansion in the west, but the link the west becomes continuous. you see around that 4500-3800 Bc period, which justifies the incoming wave.<br /><br />It is likely that IE also begin expanding to Europe, specially the ketum, due to the failure of agriculture and pastures in other places, like from agricultural regions formed by the second wave as well as the ketum populations in the steppe. Within India, the east part the wave, the satem part, just become more agressive towards the bigger river plains, like the punjab. Daniel de França MTd2https://www.blogger.com/profile/01281817409696805377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-2966489141808779282016-02-06T18:48:37.830-08:002016-02-06T18:48:37.830-08:00I must say how much I appreciate your candid and s...I must say how much I appreciate your candid and sober analysis of the range of data, from archaeological, anthropological, genetics and linguistics. The Steppe theory was never well supported by evidence, but rather appealed to many who were biased against an extra-European hypothesis. I've always noticed in many studies Iran coming up, with high diversity and upstream R1b and R1a (Underhill 2014 found, 'compelling evidence' that R1a came from Iran), as well as J2, even IJ. Even so, it's always strange how easily and often an Iranian PIE hypothesis gets brushed off. I believe the Armenian Highland hypothesis is the closest (and if I remember correctly did include parts of NW Iran, around the area of Lake Urmia). Over the past decade, I have suggested almost all the points you make in this article, towards your exact IE hypothesis. Seeing my thoughts are very much in line with yours, I am now entirely convinced that somewhere in the Zagros, through NW Iran lies the roots of IEs. However, I'd like you to clarify you, in your view, were the PIE populations of the Zagros, immediately ancestral to Kurds? Thanksblogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-44079266467526144722016-02-06T18:46:39.681-08:002016-02-06T18:46:39.681-08:00I must say how much I appreciate your candid and s...I must say how much I appreciate your candid and sober analysis of the range of data, from archaeological, anthropological, genetics and linguistics. The Steppe theory was never well supported by evidence, but rather appealed to many who were biased against an extra-European hypothesis. I've always noticed in many studies Iran coming up, with high diversity and upstream R1b and R1a (Underhill 2014 found, 'compelling evidence' that R1a came from Iran), as well as J2, even IJ. Even so, it's always strange how easily and often an Iranian PIE hypothesis gets brushed off. I believe the Armenian Highland hypothesis is the closest (and if I remember correctly did include parts of NW Iran, around the area of Lake Urmia). Over the past decade, I have suggested almost all the points you make in this article, towards your exact IE hypothesis. Seeing my thoughts are very much in line with yours, I am now entirely convinced that somewhere in the Zagros, through NW Iran lies the roots of IEs. However, I'd like you to clarify you, in your view, were the PIE populations of the Zagros, immediately ancestral to Kurds? Thanksblogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-4309360714295821442016-02-05T02:47:04.693-08:002016-02-05T02:47:04.693-08:00Thank you for the appreciation, new data has come ...Thank you for the appreciation, new data has come and will come. I am also thinking that we should include Eastern Taurus (in SE Turkey) and Northern Mesopotamia in the Neolithic IE area, as a cradle of Anatolian IEs and maybe some centum IEs, I will soon publish a post on that. A question: who have suspected all along?Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-81237698129997344192016-02-04T22:47:07.583-08:002016-02-04T22:47:07.583-08:00What a brilliant synthesis of data from various fi...What a brilliant synthesis of data from various fields, to make a very straightforward argument, that some have suspected all along! After reading through this, I can only see the NW Iranian hypothesis, to be inevitable. blogmasterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11834163614642737338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-64626527211950647862015-02-05T05:56:42.045-08:002015-02-05T05:56:42.045-08:00@Giacomo
That article of Witzel doesn't cite ...@Giacomo<br /><br />That article of Witzel doesn't cite the findings of MS Vats :)<br /><br />Anyway I agree with you and even according to Meadow(who disputes the findings of horse bones from Surkotada) the matter is about personal interpretation.He also concludes that it is easy to identify the genus(equus) but hard to identify the species.<br /><br />And we can safely say that none of the Vedic texts mentions horse burials,right?Anyway,according to SBr,the burial mounds of Deva worshippers(Vedics) are four cornered and that of Asura or demonic worshippers are round.So if we take this in account,the steppe round kurgans only represents the non-Vedic graves!<br /><br />@Nirjhar<br /><br />I don't think there is a full skeleton of horse excavated from SSC.I think they are in fragments.In BMAC though,there is a find of full headless horse skeleton.Don't know about the ribs though.Bharatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465440036142355383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-54336190168476921072015-02-02T08:19:23.832-08:002015-02-02T08:19:23.832-08:00@Giacomo,Akshai
I have an interesting question has...@Giacomo,Akshai<br />I have an interesting question has anybody tried to count the ribs of the horses found In Surkotada, BMAC, Hallur etc??? do any of them have 34 Ribs???Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-80789935903938564312015-02-01T14:12:30.665-08:002015-02-01T14:12:30.665-08:00About Vats' horses, I think they must be taken...About Vats' horses, I think they must be taken into account, although someone says that the horses of Harappa cannot be surely dated: http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/op/2002/03/05/stories/2002030500130100.htm<br />Anyway, these refutations often seem a bit hysterical, moved by the anxiety to prove that horses could not be there before the second mill. BC when the mythical Aryans arrived. Which would be a very strange absence, when we know that horses were present in Iran, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan much earlier. How can we imagine that, with the intense trade between Central Asia and India, horses were not brought to Harappa?<br /> <br />I do not have the Kanva recension, but I have never seen cited that recension, the common reference of the Satapatha is Eggeling's translation of the Madhyandina recension.<br />Giacomo Benedettihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418729274995219594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-222229208055459153.post-55573094813450694202015-02-01T07:23:51.157-08:002015-02-01T07:23:51.157-08:00Do you think the findings of MS Vats is still rele...Do you think the findings of MS Vats is still relevant to the current debate?<br />Also,have you checked the Kanva version of SBr?I couldn't find the mention of horse and chariot burials in Madhyandina version,as cited by Kuzmina.<br /><br />And I know you're busy,please take your time :)<br /><br />Bharatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00465440036142355383noreply@blogger.com